Outsmarting Legal Abuse in Family Court | Lisa Johnson

"Have you ever felt like the family court system wasn’t built to protect you—but to trap you? You’re not imagining it.
Hi, I’m Tiffanie—and today, I'm bringing you the story of Lisa Johnson, a warrior who spent nearly a decade battling legal abuse and changed the law to protect others.
If you're stuck in a toxic court battle or just desperate for hope, you need this episode. Stay tuned—you’re about to learn how to outsmart the system, reclaim your peace, and take back your life."

Tiffanie: Do you feel like you are stuck in the legal system with an ex who's trying to wear you down and bleed you, dry financially? Well, if you do, then you are in the right spot. I'm Tiffanie with True prime connections, and today I have Lisa Johnson with me, who helps people stay sane under insane circumstances. Oh, how do I love that? Hi, Lisa.

>> Lisa Johnson: Hi. So, so good to be here. Tiffanie.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, my God. So glad to have you. And I can already tell this is going to be an amazing episode. So I just want people to know, if you know anyone who's going to need this episode, please share it, because I already know a couple people who need it, so.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yep. Yep.

>> Tiffanie: You have got a lot going on, and I love it. Jesus. You got a weekly legal abuse support group. You helped pass Jennifer's Law in Connecticut.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yep.

>> Tiffanie: You, got a book coming. You got an online program. Kudos to you. Oh, my goodness, thank you. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that, you've been in a situation where you needed all of this.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah, well, I mean, I didn't. I didn't know what situation I was in until I was out. And then I started learning what situation I had been in. And then I was in another situation, which was being in the midst of something called legal abuse, which I had never even heard of. And I was just like, this is insane, right? How has happened? Like, how am I spending 10 years in the legal system?

>> Tiffanie: That's a long time.

>> Lisa Johnson: And the divorce was only one year. Only. Only one year and a hundred thousand dollars.

>> Tiffanie: whoa. What was the other nine for?

>> Lisa Johnson: The other nine were him not complying with our agreement and me being forced to go back to enforce it.

>> Tiffanie: See, that's the thing that kills me. Like, how does the court system not recognize that and put an end to it? Like, you're wasting everyone's time.

>> Lisa Johnson: Time, money, energy, everything. Like, you would think that they would want to finish it fast, but when somebody on the other side has all kinds of money, they can create all kinds of confusion, to wear the other person down, to give up. And, you know, our case took place in two different states. There were different lawyers on his end involved. It was mostly me. I. I hired a couple of lawyers at some point to help me do a few things. And I ended up realizing that it was just better to do it myself. So for basically seven years and about a hundred court appearances, I was representing myself in two states. And then my ex didn't like any of the decisions that were made against him. He appealed four Times. And then I represented myself on the appellate level and won. And then the case was so notable that it got published in the Connecticut Law Journal. So it's case law, I always say. I'm so proud of that because that's hard for any attorney to get published. And every attorney I speak to says I've never heard of a pro se or self represented litigant. So that's like one of my big life achievements that I never planned.

>> Tiffanie: Right. No, that is amazing. When I was reading up, on that, I was very impressed. Like, you go girl. You did it by yourself. I mean.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah, well, I mean, I had like wind beneath my wings. I had, you know, my partner and my dad and friends and things like that. But yeah, I wouldn't have been able to otherwise because it was a long, arduous. I say it's got my best education in the trenches and I mean, it's.

>> Tiffanie: Gotta be somewhat difficult because each state has their own laws and now you're doing it in two separate states. So you had to learn how each state does it.

>> Lisa Johnson: Well, you know, actually, so my, my background is in education and I was a high school English teacher and I taught writing and I am a professional writer. And so I felt like it was less about the law and more about the art of persuasive communication. So the skills that I had from teaching I was able to use in the courtroom in terms of presenting properly, getting documentation together. Of course it wasn't easy and I learned a lot along the way, especially by writing these beautiful speeches and starting. And the judge would be like, okay, just get to the point. I'd be like, like seven pages. Like, I spent a week on this. But yeah, but, and, and just staying like super, super focused and learning what counted in the court. So case law certainly was helpful, but I don't feel like that was, that was the biggest part. It was really about being persuasive. How do you, how do you effectively convince professionals, you know, that, that you're in the right and the other person's in the wrong. And over years and years that the case took place, it was really a lot of remembering the details. And that's one of the things I love about being pro se, which is not something for the, the faint, of heart at all. But I, the only, the only case I had was my life. I wasn't a lawyer who was balancing a bunch of other cases and so going up against attorneys who my ex hired, they had other cases. They didn't know the details. Like I did. So, you know, when you're. When you're speaking to a judge in particular and you have to think of something, you have to remember things like, I. I knew it. I had everything here and on paper. My ex wasn't the best, person, you know, best witness in court. And I think he relied heavily on his attorneys because he had so much money. I didn't have the money, but I had to rely on myself. And so you just make do.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, apparently you did. I mean, and also you lived it.


The transcript is a record of all of the conversations that took place in court

So, you know, you can, like, pinpoint and go back and really think about all the things that had happened to you.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like focusing on different parts at different times because it was so, you know, so involved.

>> Tiffanie: It's, 10 years, I'd say so.

>> Lisa Johnson: Right? Yeah. Everybody's getting tired.

>> Tiffanie: Right? That's what I'm saying. Like, the judge would be like, listen, if I see you two one more time.

>> Lisa Johnson: Well, there were multiple judges. So judges usually cycle every two to three years. So we had multiple judges. We had different judges. In New York, I think in New York we had like three or four different judges. In Connecticut, we had like, yeah, another three or four. So, yeah, it went on and on. And a lot of. A lot of, staying sane and staying afloat and doing well was being able to compile that documentation. So every time I would go to court, or not every time, but a lot of the times where I. A significant, like, a hearing or something, I would get the transcript. And so the transcript is a record of all of the conversations that the lawyers, you know, everything that the lawyers said, everything that the witnesses said and what the judge said without any emotion. So, in the moment when you're in court, it's like, like you don't. You don't remember everything. And then to get the transcript to look back and be like, there's gold here. And so every. When I'd go back, I'd. I'd basically re quote what other judges had said and, like, put together a record because it was always like a new person or, reminding them again. Like, here's the history, here's the patterns of behavior. Here's what I'm asking for. Again, like, yes, we had the same conversation four years ago. No, I'm not going to agree to that because it didn't get us anywhere.

>> Tiffanie: Right. That is a good little golden nugget, though, for anybody who is going to be doing something like that. I never even thought of that because. Exactly. Like, you have a Hundred things going through your brain while you're standing. And especially when you're in front of the judge, like, I don't know about you or that I'm like in front of a judge a lot, your mind goes blank because you have an authoritative person and they can be, they can be intimidating.

>> Lisa Johnson: Oh yeah, it's terrifying. And, and for so many of our clients, they're like, well, you know, I feel bad because I've never done this before. I don't know anything about. I'm like, who would? Like, nobody's done this before. Nobody would know it.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Lisa Johnson: So don't, you know, you have to realize, like, it's okay not to know anything. Nobody expects you to know anything.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Lisa Johnson: You learn along the way.

>> Tiffanie: Exactly.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: And through trial and error, I'm sure.

>> Lisa Johnson: Exactly.


Connecticut became the third state to have coercive control laws

>> Tiffanie: So why don't you explain to our community about the law you got passed?

>> Lisa Johnson: Okay, so. And you know, certainly I don't take all the credit. There was 108 of us giving live testimony. I think I was like speaker number eight or something. But in, let's see, maybe it was like 2020, we had a senator. So my state, I'm a New Yorker, that's why I talk really fast. But I live right over the border in Connecticut. And there was a senator named Alex Casser, and I was in some kind of support group at the ywca. And that's also where I got my domestic violence certification. And somehow Alex was like looking for people with stories about, you know, significant things that had happened, with their divorces and post judgment, meaning what happened afterward. And so I, you know, had been in court for years then, and she met me for coffee and I, I don't remember what she asked me, but I told her a little bit about the case and she said she was working on something called Jennifer's bill. So there were two, I mean there's, you know, so many domestic violence victims that are killed every year. Men and women and children, but especially women. So in Connecticut, we had a situation a few years ago with a woman named Jennifer Doulos from New Canaan, and her husband had basically murdered her. His girlfriend was involved, his business partner, partner was involved. They had several children and they had been involved in like a long term custody battle. And so things had escalated and then she disappeared. But it was very suspicious. And so there was this big case and she still hasn't been found. During the case, which went on for years, her husband, her ex husband, killed himself. And then his girlfriend was on trial and, and she just got convicted. And that was like a whole other thing. So Jennifer's Law is actually named after Jennifer Doulos. But then there was another Jennifer years before that, who was murdered right in front of her three children by her ex husband during another custody battle. She and her children had fled to California because it was the only shelter that would take teenage boys because she wanted her son to be with her too. And a lot of the shelters only take women. And so she went all the way there and her ex husband filed something and they had to come all the way back. And then he shot and killed her in front of their children. And so she was the other Jennifer that the bill was named after. So Alex was trying to get this passed in Connecticut where we would expand what's called our legal definition of domestic violence to include something called coercive control. And so before that, in a lot of the states, when you are trying to get a restraining order, you have to prove physical violence or imminent threat of, physical harm. And so Jennifer's Law, when it passed, so it was Jennifer's Bill, then it was Jennifer's Law. So when it passed, Connecticut became the third state to have these coercive control laws where now we don't just look at physical violence. We look at financial abuse, legal abuse, revenge porn, sexual abuse, stalking, isolation, digital abuse, you know, psychological, verbal, like all the different things. So you look at the big picture when deciding like whether someone needs a protective order, how custody is decided. So it really expanded things and, and I was fortunate enough. This is crazy, but at the end of, right before the 10 years, like finally, my ex finally, finally, finally complied. I had the same judge as Jennifer Doulos had. I had the judge that had made this, these decisions that, you know, a lot of people are very angry with her because they, they blamed her for what had happened to Jennifer. and it was so scary because I had been involved with Jennifer's Law. It was published in the papers, there was international, you know, testimony, and then like streamed everywhere. And, and there I was like arguing Jennifer's Law to the judge that like created the situation kind of. And. But she ended up giving me the best orders ever. It was astonishing. So it was really like. I know, I know. And you know, another thing that was really insane. I was called for jury duty to be part of the case against her husband's ex girlfriend. And ah, you had to go in and say like, why you had to be excluded. And, and so I had to see like his, his Ex girlfriend, you know, Jennifer Doulos's ex's girlfriend. And like the lawyers and say in front of them, like, why I could not be part of the jury. And I said I was involved with Jennifer's law. I'm a high conflict divorce strategist. Like we train people on coercive control and they're like, yeah, yeah, you're excused. Like, get out of. I was like, yeah, I had Judge Heller too. So. Yeah, it was crazy. It was such a crazy, crazy coincidence.

>> Tiffanie: Oh my gosh. Seriously, like you couldn't make that up.

>> Lisa Johnson: I know, I know. Really, it was, it was amazing. Yeah.


Chris and I are working on a book about parental alienation. It's due later this month

That's actually the topic of the book that we're working on now, which has to do with how to handle when your ex turns the kids against you, which we see all the time in our community because Chris and I only deal with the extremely high conflict. Yeah. So we're working on a book. I'm finishing up the first draft this due to the publisher later this month. But it's about how to handle when the ex, your ex is turning the kids against you in court and in life. Because these kids are weaponized all the time. And one of the most common things in our community, which is only high conflict. Extreme cases are not even just after the relationship ends, but pre. The relationship ending. An abuser, an abusive existence. Well, an abusive person is turning the kids, they're grooming them to reject or discard the other parent. Because we always say that when they leave or when, when the relationship ends, that kind of person says, I want to leave you homeless, penniless and childless. So I'm going to take everything and you're going to have nothing and I'm going to punish you. And so they just want to scorch the ends of the earth, including your children, to make a point that they're the victim.

>> Tiffanie: Right. Parental alienation is, I believe that they call it. And it's just I actually, I had a lady on the show and that happened to her and her kids are still kind of wishy washy with her. And like this is many years after the fact, so. It, it works. And it's just, it's a horrible thing. Like you be, I'm sorry, a horrible person. If just because someone doesn't want to be with you anymore, to be like, well, I want you to have nothing to live for, then like, what kind of person are you? Like, who does that?

>> Lisa Johnson: This, this affects 22 million people. Wow. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: A year.

>> Lisa Johnson: just in general, like who, who have to deal with this issue. And it's, there's a lot of shame associated with it because people, when you have a child that dies, everybody rallies around and thinks, you know, let me help you do it. Like everyone feels bad for you. When you have a child that won't talk to you, there's something called, there's ambiguous loss where you're grieving, but the person is still alive. And you can't talk to people because they think, well, you must have done something wrong for your kids not to talk to you because they don't understand the dynamics of domestic violence and psychological abuse towards kids. And it's basically like a brainwashing that happens, you know, steadily. And then it's like a, discard because the child isn't allowed to love both parents. So someone with that kind of personality, usually some kind of personality disorder, they're like, it's all or nothing. So you, if you love me, then you have to discard or hate your other parent. And if the child shows affection towards the other parent, they get punished. If they show hostility towards the other parent, and that's all like our clients, the target parent, it's called, then they get rewarded. So, there's so much involved and it's so sad. Bless you. Yeah, but that's, but that is something that we see happening all the time to men and women. And it's like, it's so common that when we first meet a client and we discuss like the things we can help them with, one of them is we say we're going to, we're going to make sure through your communication that we're going to protect you from false claims of parental, parental alienation. Because that's what the other side always says when they don't get their way, but they're the ones doing it. And then we say, we also help you understand what that means so you can start aggressively building a case. When they start violating the parenting plan and telling you your kids don't want to see you and blocking you from, you know, going to your kids events and stuff like that. I mean, it's, it's such an involved thing. But kids are weaponized all the time and there's, there's so much damage done.

>> Tiffanie: And it's not fair because this is something now that they have to live with for the rest of their lives. And when they get older, they might realize it and then they're gonna blame themselves for even taking part of it, even though they kind of didn't have A choice. They were literally brainwashed.

>> Lisa Johnson: Right, Right. I actually. So I have a very good friend whose daughters were turned against her for eight years, and they just came back this past year. They're now like, 20, and I think 22.

>> Tiffanie: Wow.

>> Lisa Johnson: That's a. Yeah. I interviewed in, each of them separately, and they're gonna. Some of their stories are in the book because people are like, how do kids ever come back? And she had no legal resource because her kids had already aged out of the system. But they. They get into the details of, like, what it was like, even before the actual split, for eight years of, like, their father grooming them to believe that their mother didn't love them, that she was a terrible person. And then it took, like, one thing, and then he used it. And, you know, that's a whole long story. But, yeah, there's a lot of things that people can do outside of the legal system to try to. To fix it, but it is. It's awful. It's like your children are in a cult.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Lisa Johnson: And then you think, well, you were part of that as well, but you got out. But now your kids are forced because they're dependent, so they have to go back and forth. Usually. Yeah. But a lot of our clients are dealing with this.

>> Tiffanie: Well, I'm glad your friend got her kids back because that's just. That's heartbreaking. I couldn't imagine. Could not imagine. Yeah.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah. I mean, these are parents who, like, love their kids, raise their kids, were the primary caregiver, were close to their kids, and they could see, like, it's starting to happen. And then they just never, Nobody ever imagined that this could be true and real and that they're like, I'm the loving parent. Like, how could my kid not talk to me anymore?

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Lisa Johnson: A lot of his fear do you.


Chris and I call ourselves high conflict divorce strategists

>> Tiffanie: Guys help your clients with.

>> Lisa Johnson: Okay, so we. We do several things. So, you know, Chris and I call ourselves high conflict divorce strategists. So we're not attorneys. We kind of fill the gap between what attorneys are not trained to do and therapists don't understand. So lawyers, as well as most of the world, we're logical. Like, we think, okay, so people are breaking up, everybody's angry. But you're going to come to the table and you're going to think about being fair and doing what's best for your kids. Right? Because that's. That's what normal people do. So ours, we only deal with the crazy cases. So of course, our clients. Exes. Don't care about either of Those things, they care about me, me, me, me, me, what's best for me. And so everything, communication, negotiation, has to be done completely differently because you're dealing with someone who doesn't care about normal values that other. Like, a lot of these people are incapable of actually loving their children because they don't have empathy. So everything has to be done differently. Therapists, unfortunately, don't understand the trauma of legal abuse. And that's our specialty of, like, basically being stuck in the legal system for years with someone who's using it to control, harass, intimidate, coerce, or impoverish you. And so they. They'll sometimes give bad advice, like, oh, just gray rock. Like, just don't answer your ex or something. But that could. That could end up in like, like a terrible situation where people lose custody. They'll be like, oh, my therapist said just to, like, you know, I need to work on my own healing. But you. You can't behave like that when you share children with somebody. So we, we are not lawyers. We do a ton of strategic advice. We have lots of lawyers as clients because lawyers are generally not trained in strategy. And then we also have a lot of mental health professionals because people are just like, I don't understand the way the family court system m works. All my years in court, my training and education, our experience in general, and interviewing hundreds of professionals about this topic. So we do a lot with strategy. We teach people, how to present properly to evaluators or in court. We teach how to organize your documentation. So if you do have a lawyer, you're saving tons of money because you're being efficient. You know, the stuff the court cares about versus, like, here's my binders of everything. And this really matters. And why, why, why? It'd be like, no. Like, we do harsh New York reality checks, and we'll be like, nope, nope, yep, that's good. That's good. That's bad. Here's why. And so our clients tend to be, like, really, really prepared and organized. So their lawyers love them. And so their lawyers, they make it easier because these are the really crazy cases. We also teach them something that we just released our first course on more than anything else is strategic communication. And the course is called how to communicate with your ex without destroying your case or losing your mind, because that's what everybody's freaking out about. Like, they still have post traumatic stress disorder from communicating because they have to still be in contact with this person for 18 years plus. And then we work a lot with clients who don't have attorneys anymore. Like, like me going pro se, helping them build like really persuasive arguments. We do stuff with mediation, trying to think what else. Oh, and now we're doing a lot with like helping people in the whole like parental alienation, abuse by proxy thing. So do you think it would be.

>> Tiffanie: Better like say to go through like a course or like one of your classes and learn how to do it yourself or to use like a pro bono kind of first, like have you.


I do not think anybody should deal with a custody battle without an attorney

>> Lisa Johnson: All right, so great, great question. Because like we're way cheaper. But I do not think anybody should ever deal with a custody battle initially or a divorce without an attorney because that's the basis of the case. And that, that is like everything. Like people, you have to know your rights. You need to know a lot of stuff about the law. Like that should be done with a professional. And then after that post judgment, you basically have the law, you have your agreement or your court order. When someone violates it, it's more limited. So then you can, you have a better chance of doing it yourself. But doing, being pro se, it's also called pro per or self represented. It takes, it takes a lot. And one of the most important things is learning emotional detachment. And so we have a good friend named David Morneau. He's an attorney in Canada. He's called himself the Recovering Litigator. And we've done, he wrote the forward to our, our first book, this is our first book that came out in 2023. But he talks about how when he used to litigate, he loved going against self represented litigants because he's like, as soon as I get under their skin it gets so emotional and they, they completely lose every single time. So it takes a lot. Like you have to have such a thick skin. You have to be able to think on your feet. You know, you have to be super, super organized. It's there's a lot of training that goes into it. So with our clients who are pro se, I'll be, I'll bully them. I'll be like, well why, you know why you do. You need this. And what about this? You did this wrong. Opposing counsel is bullying them. And so there's a lot of pivoting that has to take place and tons of preparation. So it's something you can learn, but only after I would say a lawyer has made like a solid court or helped you get a solid court order or agreement in place.

>> Tiffanie: Right? So because I know like there are firms that will take on your case for no cost. But you wonder how much time are they really going to put for your case?

>> Lisa Johnson: Okay, so what you said, like, pro bono or. Or, like, limited scope? So then, like, that's something we can help with, because that. We always say you need, like, a team of people. You need, like, a lawyer, a therapist, us, friends and family if you have them. Maybe a financial person, maybe a real estate person. But, like, you need a team to get involved with it. So if you have a lawyer, like, that's great, because we could do a lot with, like, helping you be the teacher's pet of clients for that attorney by getting, like, all this stuff together, and then they basically can just do their job of translating your case into the law and you know how to behave yourself. You don't make faces in court. You don't interrupt, which, of course, I used to do.

>> Tiffanie: I think you have to learn not hide my face.

>> Lisa Johnson: Oh, me neither. Me neither. And especially in Covid, like, when you're on camera, it's like, I forget. And the judges would be like, Ms. M. Johnson, stop rolling your eyes. Stop shaking your head. I'd be like.

>> Tiffanie: I totally get it. So hard. My face don't lie.

>> Lisa Johnson: I know, I know. It's so hard. It's so hard. I learned. I was like, now I'm gonna. I'm just gonna look down. Down. Or I'm gonna look to the side.

>> Tiffanie: Right. No, I get it. I'd probably just have to stare at the floor. Find a spot and just. Yeah, stare at it.


Fear to Fierce and Family Court teaches strategic communication with your ex

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: You also have, an online program from Fear to Fierce and Family Court.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yes. So that we're just starting now. So that was that first course about, you know, like, how to communicate with your ex properly. So that's the first one in the series. And then we. We just, like, literally this past week, sort of told our. Our clients about it. And so, yeah, that's. That's something people can see. Chris and I, I think it's like, four hours. So we dive deeply into strategic communication. Like, the mistakes that people make, how your ex is going to communicate. We teach something called FRAC that we made up. That's, like, our whole method of doing it. And then because we've worked with hundreds of people with this and other things. People love client stories and samples. So we take actual. Of course we've anonymized them. actual, like, client letters over things that come up all the time. Like when your ex doesn't answer and you need, you know, you need them to answer. Like, what do you do. How do you get your ex to agree to a therapist? What do you do when your child is really sick and your ex is demanding parenting time? And so you basically take, like, original letters and then give them a makeover and go through explaining why. And we always say with strategic communication, you are always writing to your ex, but you're writing for that invisible audience. So judge, mediator, custody evaluator, attorney for the child guardian, ad litem, whoever. So we want you to always present as the best co parent ever. But at the same time, you're documenting your ex's patterns of behavior over time, the impact it has on your children and on your relationship with your children. And this helps turn hearsay into evidence. Because if you just went in and said they did this, this, this, like, nobody knows if that's true. But when you start strategically communicating and writing only, it becomes part of the record. And one of the best exhibits you can ever bring to court is your communication with. With your ex. So it helps, again, like, turn hearsay to evidence. It turns the power dynamic around and like I said earlier, protects you from false claims of parental alienation because you're going to be such an amazing co parent that no one could ever put their talons into, like, saying, you didn't. You're acting like the authority and you're keeping the kids away. And a lot of what we do in teaching people how to behave themselves is going over best interest factors and going over something called the alienation factors. Because we think that a lot of people are terrified when they hear. They're like, oh, no, I'm being accused of it. And my ex has an expert and owner. And we're like, but when you understand what it all means, like, we can make sure that you're not doing it and you can aggressively defend yourself. And we had a client recently, very, you know, extreme case. Her ex is, very rich and very powerful. And of course, you know, was able to. And he's very charming as well, so managed to convince a couple of therapists that, you know, maybe there was something going on with the mom. And the reason the kids didn't want to be with him is because it's the mom's fault. The mom is our client. And when they started bringing up the idea, like, maybe you're doing this, she's like, oh, no, no, it's because she already knew all the factors and she was a. She was able to question, well, like, how can you prove that? Because there was already something, you know, there's documented Issues from before we even broke up. Like, I have this, this, this, this, this. And she was able to use those factors and they dropped it immediately. Like they didn't even try to pursue it. So we were so pleased and relieved and happy for her.

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely. So, like I was telling you when we first started, I had an interview right before this one and I told her, you know, I love telling people to, to journal, you know, keep books of things that happen. And she said that it can work, but it also might not work. But what she advised, which I thought was really smart, is to like tape yourself. But like five minutes before you're getting ready to even tell the kids, like, put your, your shoes on, like, we're going to go for the meetup, stuff like that. So you can just hear normal interaction. You're loading the dishwasher just to show, like, yes, you are around, you're not telling your kids anything. And then get their natural expressions because sometimes the kids don't want to go. And so it'll be genuine. And then just have it roll the whole car ride, have it for this swap. And then maybe like five minutes after she's like, I don't care if you're in the drive through or anything like that. It just, it shows. Yes, you need the drop, like, you know, so nothing can come back later. And I was like, that's brilliant. I thought that was great advice.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah. That is not advice we would give at all. Nothing against government. Absolutely not. No. First of all, from interviewing, like a lot of attorneys, judges do not like recordings. AI. Everything can be manipulated. Judges don't really care about like your conversations before drop up. They care about like the visible impact on children. And if children are like saying, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to go with the other parent, which happens all the time. Even in normal divorce. They're going to look a lot deeper than just like the recorded conversations that you bring in that are basically your own. Like, who knows what the, you know, who, how someone put that together. So they're going to be, you know, when there's a custody evaluation by an evaluator, by a guardian ad litem, or a forensic investigator, they like, you can give them that, but I don't think it would have much weight. They, they would be interviewing your children. They'd be interviewing your collaterals, which are your witnesses. They'd want to know what you're like as a parent. Not your own evidence of, you know, what you say, but other people's impressions of you, they, they'd be interviewing your ex. You yourself, you know about. Like, they. And they use certain questions to sort of trigger you to see how you are. But there's, there's a lot more involved. And yeah, in our experience is audio, Audio and video recordings, especially now with AI.


People bring all kinds of altered doctored evidence to court

Like, I would not. Again, nothing against the other person, but like, would never recommend that as some kind of powerful evidence.

>> Tiffanie: Right? To me, it kind of made sense because it's like the other person's going to be like, see, she told them on the way here. You know what I mean? But you hear everything that's going on.

>> Lisa Johnson: She's like, clearly, yeah, but you don't know what's true. Like, I, right now, there's no way to know that. So they, if, if it became an issue, a forensic investigator would, would, Would like, take it. And then they'd be like, okay, but anyway, let me down. Let me actually talk to the kids myself. Because in a way too that's, that's hearsay. Like, we don't know who those kids are. Like, we don't know when that happened. Like, everything can be. People bring all kinds of altered doctored evidence to court. And that's why judges are like, we don't know the context. Like, we don't have time for this.

>> Tiffanie: AI's ruined so much.

>> Lisa Johnson: I know. It's terrifying. I mean, it's good, but it's terrifying. Like, you don't know it's real anymore. And it's real. It's really affected the legal industry.

>> Tiffanie: I can totally see that. Because, yeah, I mean, look at, What case was it? It was, I, think the Johnny Depp. And Amber heard she falsified some of the text messages which came back later on. So, like.

>> Lisa Johnson: And there goes your credibility. Like, Right. It's not even just the evidence. It's like, now nobody believes anything you say.

>> Tiffanie: Right. And people are now wondering if that's what's going to happen, you know, with the freaking Blake and Justin. I'm like, oh, yeah, hearing about all that. But you just, you never know. And that's. That sucks because one person is telling the truth.

>> Lisa Johnson: Right? But that's, it takes like, investigation, but also your testimony is, is, you know, that that counts towards your credibility. So people have to decide, like, whether to believe you or not. And one of the things we work on with, with people is presentation. We say we want you to be as calm as you can, but for me to say calm down is inflammatory. Like, that's not helpful at all. But the way we help you calm down is by helping you be really focused and organized on the things that the court cares about, because you're usually up against a manipulative con artist, pathological liar. That's what most of our clients ex, on some level, who is very charming and loves, loves the whole new stage of the family court system because they're like, ooh, what new level of expert can I manipulate? And here we have our clients and us, like, traumatized, terrified, like, worried about protecting our kids. Like an absolute mess. And so it's like, we have to, like, package you better because we want people to like you so that they believe you. And it takes. It takes a lot of work, but it can be learned.

>> Tiffanie: Like journaling and keeping. does that hold up anything that you've seen? Because I say that a lot. Like.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah, no, journaling is really. No, that's really good to remember things. That's really good to put together a timeline, you know, to be able to remember details and things. Absolutely. Like, for me, I. I've kept journals since I was 12. I didn't need all of those for my court case, but, you know, I had all kinds of details, but that helped my credibility. But again, like, for you to come in and just report stuff, it's not just because, oh, I have it in this journal. It's like, are you believable, though? You know, so it's helpful. It's definitely helpful in terms, like, you should definitely be journaling. But for me, we want to memorialize what's happening with your ex in real time by like, something happens and you say, hey, you know, yesterday our kid came home and said this, like, I'm kind of confused, blah, blah, blah. And then we, we get into the whole strategic communication then becomes part of a chain. If you just have it in a journal, it's fine. But it's more powerful if it has something to do with your kids and your ex's parenting. You want to get it into a chain of communication, not just your own, like, reporting. Because that's just one sided.

>> Tiffanie: No, for sure. It's hearsay. Yeah, I know. Here I don't think we have that where you are, but like, when people are in a parenting kind of war, they can communicate through a text message that's set up by the court so they know. yeah.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. All over the world. Well, maybe not the world, but definitely America and Canada, because we have clients in other parts of the world. And I'm trying to think they might have the parenting apps in different parts of the world. But yeah, our family wizard talking parents app close. Those are things that are the best way to communicate because nobody can alter anything. And you could do recordings, they could record calls with the kids because that's always like an issue about like someone saying they're not getting their calls. And it shows when something is read. Shows when something is written. Things can be really organized. So those are really great.

>> Tiffanie: I've never had to use any of that, thank God. But I would have had like you can't delete or do anything.

>> Lisa Johnson: So no.


We say every time you want to send something to your ex, you send it first

And, and like judges or guardian ad litems or whoever, they can get in there if they need to to look at your communication and plan that they will. And that's why we're like, you're always under that quartz microscope. So you want to, you can't pop off. You gotta keep yourself presenting like the best co parent ever, even though you wanna scream. Yep, that's what. So we do a thing with our clients too where we say like we call it the permission slip plan. So we say once we teach you strategic communication, we do this thing called free check ins as part of a membership program. We say every time you think you want to send something to your ex, you send it to us first. And you wait, you're going to wait a little bit and we're going to proofread and edit it for you because we want you to have clean hands and we want this record to be perfect and this way you don't have the burden of doing right. And we also say like, you can send us stuff that you want to send to your ex. We'll be a whole little book over here of like things that are never going to be read by your ex because they would love to get it because they love to see you getting angry. But we take them and oh my God, some of this stuff is absolutely hysterical. Like our clients are so funny. They're so funny. So in, in, in our course we have some samples of some of the quotes that we've gotten. Like that we say like letter to the ex but like we intercepted it.

>> Tiffanie: I was gonna say you could probably have like a book on that and I'm sure I bet people would read it because it'd be funny.

>> Lisa Johnson: Oh my God. Yeah, yeah, well we have, we, we have them, that maybe that'll be one of the books down the road.

>> Tiffanie: There you go.

>> Lisa Johnson: Oh my God, the story. Like being a writer myself, the stories we hear, it is just amazing. It's amazing. They're so much fun. I mean, they're fun. They're fun to tell later. But we have a lot of humor going on in our support group, too, because it's so outrageous. And once you're past it a little, you just laugh because you're like, I can't. I can't believe that. Like. Like, for example, one of our clients, she was telling us her ex actually came into court and said that he was late because the squirrel ate the wires to his alarm clock. Like, really? That's just one tiny little thing. Another one. Another one of our clients who is. She's such a riot. She was telling us this. Everything she says is funny, but she was telling us this story that. That her ex got a dog and said that the dog was trained by a Russian and the dog only spoke Russian. So they got in this huge fight because he insisted that the whole family had to learn Russian because they had a. They had to train the dog in Russian, like, so. And she was like. She actually has, like, the recording. Like, someone in. Like, one of her kids actually recorded this. This argument of them scre. Like, he was telling her, like, the dog only speaks Russian. Like, you have to learn Russian. It was like a serious argument. Like.

>> Tiffanie: Wow.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Just wow. I'm so glad I have never had to go into all that craziness. But, yeah, it's so great, though, that there are people out there now advocating, because this does happen so much, and when you're going through it, it's not funny. And.

>> Lisa Johnson: No, it is not funny. And I definitely don't want to minimize it. I'm just like, yeah, we. We. We're fortunate enough to see people, like, move down the path, and then later we laugh, but it is not funny. But it's so important to have support from people who get it and to have. We. We have in our. In our support group. That's one of our client perks. We actually mix our male and female clients together, which is highly unusual in domestic violence space. But we, say our. Our clients tend to be like the biggest sweetie pies, both male and female. They are like the shining stars that made their exes look good. And a lot of them are really well educated. And. But the. It's. It's great to have people that really, really understand you, because in a normal support group, a normal divorce support group, people will be like, that cannot be true. And so people will share the stories. Like, we have our babies who are at the very beginning of the process, and then we have our grizzled Veterans who have been in it for a while. And so it's really good. The babies get a little scared sometimes, but the grizzled veterans are so calm because they've been doing well. And they also are just like, yep, I'm, here, I'm still doing my thing. And you just kind of get used to it and accept it. And then you, you keep living your life.

>> Tiffanie: I think that's important because then you have someone at every step of the process. Because even on my show, like, I talk about a lot of deep, disturbing things, but with my guests, we still can laugh about it because you've done the work, you, you know, you've moved past it. Now it's like, what in the hell? You know what I mean?

>> Lisa Johnson: I know. Like, how can I believe this?

>> Tiffanie: once you can get to that point, it's a whole new world. But it's just, you gotta get there. And it's a process.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah, it is, it is, it's. But it really helps to have people with you where you can just say, like, you know exactly how it feels, right?

>> Tiffanie: And be like, help. What do I do in this kind of situation?


First, take care of yourself and ask for help, says M. M.

And someone who might have, walked that same one will be like, well, this is what I did. Or, you know, it's just, it's good to have people who, exactly, they understand. They can meet you where you are.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah, exactly.

>> Tiffanie: Well, if anyone is, like, going through this right now as we speak, like, what would be your advice to them?

>> Lisa Johnson: well, first of all, realize that it is not just you and your crazy ex. It's the whole system, unfortunately. And that it is really important. I know so many people dealing with this have been the ones carrying the burden of everything. Probably felt like single parents, even while they had a partner. It's one of the loneliest things to be in a toxic relationship. It's. It's far worse than being alone, I think. So realize that even though you're so independent and brilliant and taking care of everybody else, like, now is the time to ask for help because you need support getting through this. And the most important thing you can do is to get support, to learn how to become self regulated so that you can help your children, moving forward. Because the better you are, like, the more balanced you are. And, if you're able to still enjoy your life in between all the chaos, you're gonna not have your children be. Feel like they're, they're responsible for your emotional health. And that's something a lot of people don't think about because they're so busy trying to take care of things and their kids worry about them because they see how much they're struggling. So for you to realize, like, I'm going to get help, I'm going to take care of myself. Your kids will be like, my mom or my dad is good and I can just live my life and still be a child. So that's really, really important. Find people. Well, actually, let me back up for a second. No doom scrolling. So people in this situation tend to be very attracted to the accounts that have these horrible stories about, you know, children getting killed and family court stuff like going wrong. And now is not the time to be reading about that because that influences how you approach your situation. That's going to make you feel like you're never going to win, you're going to fail. Family court is corrupt and biased and you know, if you don't have tons of money and you're a woman, like, you're going to lose. That's absolutely not true. Many, people, I mean we, we only deal with, like I said, high conflict cases. Many of our clients, most of our clients do extraordinarily well in court. And these are the hardest cases. And so it's really learning what you need to know to get through it, on many levels like strategy and emotional support. So, you know, understanding that you should not be looking at that stuff now. You should be looking at like the accounts that have like the puppies and the cats and things that make you laugh because you have so much cortisol, that stress hormone, you need to have it balanced out with pleasure. Hormones you really have to be conscious of, like that's, that's harming your brain right now. Don't look at that stuff for now. That's for later. Sociological experiments. People who are not in this or like, wow, that actually happens to people, that's fine. But not you for now. That's for later. So that, that's my advice. There's all kinds of other things in terms of strategies, but, but first, like really, really take care of yourself and ask for help.

>> Tiffanie: I think that's important. Self care. I mean you can't help anyone else if you can't take care of yourself. So. Yeah, and I love it that you help people. Pretty much worldwide, right?

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: M. So I mean, I love that. I'll make sure I'm going to put your links in my show notes.


Domestic violence affects one in three women and one in five men

And was there anything else that you wanted to add before we close?

>> Lisa Johnson: I think a lot of people beat themselves up because they feel like, how could I have been so stupid? I know. a lot of our clients are very successful in other areas of their lives. They're looked at as role models, and so they feel even more ashamed because their friends and family are like, oh, I never thought you, of all people, would fall for someone like that. Or, like, why didn't you just leave sooner? Or, why doesn't the judge just do this? Or, oh, you're still in court. Like, try to understand that. That people just don't really under. They don't understand what domestic violence is, but it affects one in three women and one in five men. And just because it feels like it's you and. And you feel like such a, you know, like a loser or, like, stupid or whatever, nobody's talking about it. It's not that it doesn't occur. It's that nobody's talking about it. And, you know, you're gonna. You're gonna get better. And the person that you were involved with, the reason they were attracted to you is because you're such an amazing person. All of our clients, like I said, sweetie pies. Successful, responsible, creative, beautiful. The reason that they chose you was not because you were foolish. It's because you're a shining star that made them look, good. And so it says something amazing about you, not that you should feel bad about yourself. So just try to remember that and that once you get through this, and you will, with support, you need support. Otherwise, you're not going to get through it. You're just going to soar. So invest in getting that support and realize that life is so much better on the other side. And it's going to be a bumpy road for a while, but you're going to look back and be like, I changed for the better. And like one of our clients said, if I weren't. If. If I. If this hadn't happened to me, I would have stayed a doormat for the rest of my life. So there's many amazing opportunities ahead for you.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Once you get past all this, like, a whole new world. So, even.

>> Lisa Johnson: It's not even at the end. Like, as you start going through it and getting better, it's. It's a whole new world. It's not just one thing at the end. It's like a process.

>> Tiffanie: Right. I can imagine you grow as a person as you go through the process.

>> Lisa Johnson: Yeah, you really do.

>> Tiffanie: Well, that's great information. I really appreciate everything that you said today, and I think this will help people.

>> Lisa Johnson: People.

>> Tiffanie: And again, like I said, I'll make sure I have your notes, your links in the bottom of the show notes so people will be able to come and find you.

>> Lisa Johnson: Okay, well, thank you so much, Tiffanie. Yeah, it was a pleasure.