Silence Doesn’t Protect Victims—it Protects Predators

Meet Cheryl Hauk

SPEAKER_01 0:01

You can't always choose the pieces you're given, but you can choose what you build. Hey friends, welcome, welcome back. This is Tiffany, your host of True Crime Connections, and joining me today is Cheryl Hauk. She is an author of Peace by Peace, a memoir, a survival, resilience, and the power of creativity. So, Cheryl, I want to thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and meet you. I've listened to your podcasts and they're just so spot on.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Thank you. I really appreciate that. Unfortunately, you're in the boat, you know, where childhood trauma has kept you silent for many, many, many years. And I'm glad that you're not allowing it to keep you silent anymore.

Changing Laws Now

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, I can't. I am a survivor and I was silent. I told some people when I was a child, and no one did anything. I did, you know, there's a story about how I met my husband, and I did tell him the first night I met him, not because I was dating him or sleeping with him, just because I was kind of mad. He was mad at the world. And I'm like, you know, what the fuck, man? You don't have any reason to be mad. And I just kind of told him right there. But it was the kind of thing that I just said, listen, I was sexually abused by my dad. And that was the end. And we've been married for 43 years, and there's never really been a discussion since then. My children are grown. I didn't tell them until they were fully grown. And that discussion went the same way. I just want you to know as an adult that, you know, your mom was a survivor. And that was the end of that. And some of them don't even want to read the book. So I tried testifying. I went to court against my abuser, which was my father. And it just wasn't enough. And I needed at the end of my life, and I thought I was dying when I started writing the book. I talk about it in the beginning of the book. I had all these lung nodules. And University of Michigan pretty much said, Oh, you're going to die in six months. You must have fast lung cancer. Of course, they kind of said that before. They did all the PET scans and things they needed to do. And I thought, oh crap. So I bought my husband a dog and I started writing a book. And so it was my way of saying, hey, you know, I'm leaving, but my voice has to still be here when I left. Six weeks later, they told me I had something different, or they didn't really know what I had, but I stuck with the dog and I wrote the finishing of the book. So that's kind of I've got to have that voice. You know, I'm I'm 63 and and there's not enough of us. There's you and some of your other guests, but they're not enough of us that are saying to the world, this is this is a no-brainer, guys. Why aren't you changing laws? Why aren't you saving children? It's financially breaking our communities with medical bills and mental health bills. Why aren't we taking care of this earlier on? So that is why I wrote the book.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

That is a great question. Why don't they do more? It just is mind-blowing to me. Because, like you said, this happens at a young age, and there's so many different avenues that these people can go down. And a lot of them are very costly. They could be, you know, the next predator. It just goes so many different ways. And it's time to nip it in the butt early to help people heal.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah. And we do that by how do we detour predators that know that there's no accountability and they know the system works for them. And that's kind of what I've gone towards. But there's other things, there's prevention. I go to school districts. I I was a music educator for 41 years, and I never said anything to my school district until I turned 50 and went to court. But it wasn't something I got on top of a hill and yelled and said, we have to stop this. But recently, as a retired teacher, I went back and said, Listen, we need mandatory reporting education on what it what teachers should look for. We need parent fares and they said deferred it to other places. So why is that happening? You know, why is when I go and think, oh, I'm going to testify in front of legislatures, I have documentation, I have this situation. It's financially better for them to pass the laws that help. And they don't. It took 10 years to pass a law that was a compromise. It wasn't even the law that me and fellow women in the legislation in the state I come from, which is Hawaii, got any kind of law passed. And honestly, when I went into it, I thought this is a no-brainer. This is a no-brainer. No one wants their wife or their children or their, they no one wants their kids abused, but that is not really the reality of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Unfortunately, no. I mean, half of the politicians and lawmakers are probably in the Epstein files.

Epstein and Accountability

SPEAKER_00 5:56

So Yeah, so we could talk about right now. I mean, I wrote this book and look at what's happening with the Epstein file. That was totally fate. That wasn't something I planned at all. It just all came together at the same time. But one of the things I think people don't talk about with the Epstein files is the accountability that these survivors who are trying to go to the Senate and testify, they don't have accountability. Those statues of limitations are up. And those people know that. I mean, we know that some of the people who have had to step down from their high places, if they're charged in other countries, they're not being charged for pedophilia. What they're being charged for is other business things, kind of like Al Capone, right? Al Capone, we know did all kinds of crimes. But he was charged and went to jail for money laundering, not for all the other things. So, you know, that's what's going on. These women are not getting accountability for their own selves to now feel not like victims anymore, but survivors, which is a huge jump because so many people out there feel like victims because there is no accountability. But the truth is they are survivors because they're still here and they're still contributing. Anyways, I could go on and on about that.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Oh, it's so good, I trust me. It's just it's not right. The law is supposed to protect innocents, and instead they protect predators, and it just doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Well, if you think of one in three or one in five of the statistics, one time in childhood, one in five girls are molested in the United States. Wow. That's a lot of people in the room you're in. Let's say you're in a classroom of 30. That's statistically six. Well, what's the statistics of who are the predators? They're probably as high as what the statistics of the survivors are or victims are. So that's a lot of people in a room, too. So, and and my abuser, my father, was if you read the book, he was a military officer. He trained John McCain. He was and still is an upstanding businessman. And and everybody said I was lying, including him. Except that when I took him to court, he called me, and I don't talk to him, and offered me a million dollars to walk away and be quiet. So, and that was not the point of the court case. The point was to set a precedent for changing laws. But uh, you know, you had this upstanding citizen, and that's just one example, one example, and he never went to jail, and the only accountability he has ever had is is settling the case that I brought towards him because the laws won't allow other people to sue him, and of course, criminal justice is never gonna be there.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Right. You had said that your dad pretty much planned this before you were even born.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

So he told my mother, and so it comes from my mother, he told my mother that he had systematically planned that I was going to be his, he was going to possess me and I would be his project. And so it was planned before I was born. So I can't really remember not being this possession, which meant I always had to be with him. I always had to, and and that's not even the sexual part, that is the just the physical part. I, you know, if he went golfing, I had to go golfing, or if he played tennis, I had to play tennis. Or if he drove to McDonald's, I had to go to McDonald's. I had to be good, meaning how I behaved with him, how I treated him. I when I was sexually assaulted three or four times a week, I did fight. I can tell you, I fought very hard as long as I can remember. He he would get mad and he would punish the people around me, my mother, my siblings, just because I was not going in the direction that his project needed to be going in. Sounds like a control freak. Yes, absolutely. He's a narcissist and he's a control freak. Absolutely. And, you know, he controlled a lot of people, but he was an intelligence officer trained at Annapolis. He was trained to do this. He's in John McCain's book. Being given, I don't know about giving credit, but giving credit because John McCain learned how to survive the POW camps that he was in in Vietnam. So this man knows how to control, he knows how to manipulate. Unfortunately, I'm a Leo. I was born the year of the tiger, the Chinese year of the tiger. And I I kind of joke about it in the book that he probably should have looked at my horoscope before he chose me as the project.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I love that.

Trauma Rewires the Brain

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah, that's kind of the situation. But, you know, he controlled everything. He still controls most everything. He's 93. I'm not sure he's still alive. I I don't have much to do with him, but I have that I haven't heard that he's he's passed. So he's still controlling his world. And he's not a very nice guy, besides all of that. Uh, he hid his money, he he manipulated people in business, he he left his first two children, abandoned them. And then I didn't even know I had a brother and sister till I was 22 years old. And my mother decided to tell me to get back at him. So, you know, there was a lot going on besides just the sexual assault. And what we know, and I'll go back to this, is that when a child's brain is growing, the damage that trauma does is about 10 times more than the same kind of trauma as an adult. Because when you're adult, your your brain is not growing, it's not developing. But you have this beautiful little brain that is, you know, neurons are growing. And as an educator, I know how important it is when language is introduced, music is introduced, and when trauma is introduced, and it's a constant trauma, you know, the more constant, the more, the greater the trauma, the more the brain has a really difficult time surviving and it just finds new ways to survive and new pathways, just like when you're learning a language, when you're 30. If you've not ever learned another language, it's really, really hard because those neurons never were made in your brain. But if you're listening to two or three different languages when you're between the ages of three and nine, the pathways in your brain are growing and learning. So, so it's much easier when you're adult. It's the same way when it comes to reading or it comes to math. And and so I really struggled, you know, I was just surviving with learning how to read, doing math, just being able to have relationships as a child that were normal because I couldn't tell my best friend what was happening. I did once in high school, and she told me that I was crazy. But again, that she was she was a child. She didn't need to have that responsibility. I've never blamed her. Even when I talk to her as an adult, she says, I'm so sorry. And I say, No, no, no, you were a child. But now you have no excuse. Now you, why don't you step up and why don't you tell the story of what it would have been like to have a best friend? Have another friend whose mother heard when I was in high school an incident. My father pulled me from a room, a hundred people, and he was trying to fondle me in the other room. And I was begging for him not to do it. And this woman who was in my church, who was the mother of one of my close friends, heard it. And she went to the pastor and said, Listen, you know, this is going on. And the pastor said, and not only on one occasion, many occasions, but said to her, Oh, God will forgive him. We we'll we'll just pray for them. And nothing ever happened. Nothing stopped. So I I just think that what we need to be talking about is how do we stop this for other children? How do we prevent it? And there's so many things we can do that the general population aren't doing. This book in the community I live, and I, you know, honestly, it's only been out six, six weeks, and I I haven't sold many books. I've probably given away more books than I've sold. And and I'm I'm not out to like sell them for money. I'm out there to get the message across. My neighbors who have read the book, they're like, Are you kidding? It's really one in five? Are you kidding? This really happens. There are a lot of people out there that think this is just really foreign. And it's not, it's affecting every single one of us. And if we don't all do something about it against the predators, it's never going away. And our children will never be safe. Our grandchildren will never be safe.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

It affects us in one way or another. Either you're going through it or it affects it affects us financially because of the burden, like not the burden, but you know, the thing that the community has to pick up the pieces. They have to, you know, now fork out more money for the healthcare needs and for the prisoners and all of that rehabs and like all of this, it's all calls. That's why my show is the Crime Connections, because it's all connected.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Right. Yeah. And and what we know is that someone who's been through what I have, I was told has a longevity of 20 years less than the normal longevity. And so when I turned 60, I went to my doctor and I said, Hey, listen, is my time up? And she goes, Well, that's a little skewed. And I said, Well, what do you mean? And she said, Because 80% of the people like you who've been through what you've been through, they either kill themselves slowly with alcohol or drug abuse, or they kill themselves with self-harm quickly. And who does that leave? Does that leave the children and the spouses? Does that leave the medical bills of, you know, kidney disease and heart disease? And and, you know, I've watched people die of alcoholism, and it's costly and it's painful, and it's it's that way, not just for that person, but for all of the people that love them. So the connections do affect everyone. And I think that's the biggest message of all is that people can't keep their eyes shut anymore. They have to acknowledge it and help us do something about it so that it isn't so damaging. And it's been damaging for thousands of years. We're not going to stop it, but we can curtail it.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

For sure. We need to stop the buyers. If if there's no buyers, there's no market. So it's just how do we get there?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

How do we get there? Well, I I believe that human nature is accountability goes far. Accountability is huge. What that accountability looks like is different for different communities and different nations, and what's accountability. But in some communities where I grew up in Hawaii, community is so important that the silence is kept for the community. That has to change. Right? That has to change. And that can change with more people stepping up and not being scared. And there are definitely for me some repercussions. I'd like to put it, you know, I I'm gonna be honest, it's not easy. You know, I have a family who does not support me at all. No one. You know, I would love to have people right behind me, loving me through it and and patting me on the back, but that doesn't happen. I'd like all of my legislatures to always say, yeah, we're gonna get this passed. But there's times that sometimes I'm a little too loud or a little too brash, and they kind of take a step back. You know, that hurts too. But we have to have people who are brave enough to write those books, to go on these podcasts, to make podcasts like you, and let our viewers know that everyone has a responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Everyone, yes, it's like that old saying if you see something, say something. It goes for everything. Italy, I don't know if it's true. I've seen it on social media, and I really hope it is, but they're doing castration. Like, let's chop fuckers off, let's do it, line them up.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

I I don't know if that's true or not, but boy, you know, I like my vengeance, but but just think that now that's a deterrent. Yeah, that is a deterrent. So, you know, there are some some other things. I mean, I I'm a liberal with really humane understanding, but letting pedophiles only have 15 months of accountability after their victims, that that's just that's not accountability. That's not there, should be no statute of limitations in the United States of America.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Hundred periods. Period. I was thinking about that earlier. There shouldn't be any and that's what you're fighting against now, right?

Registry Gaps and Power

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Yeah. So, you know, we did make a retroactive statute of limitations for civil suits for people uh abused after July 1st, 2024. But anybody before can't sue anyone, and and part of that reasoning is that it will bankrupt schools, religious institutions, governments. You know, you've got child protective services who aren't protecting, you know, it will bankrupt things, but there has to be some accountability. There has to be, because whatever we've been doing isn't working. It's not working. It's definitely not working at all. You know, you we have this registry that you can go on. And I mean, if you go on a registry in the state I live, there are dots everywhere. And they are in my neighborhood and my grandchildren's neighborhood. They're everywhere, but they're general. I mean, you have to click on every button to see if it was a 17-year-old who had a 16-year-old girlfriend, or it was really someone who had a five-year-old who was taking explicit pictures and and abusing their neighbor.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Well, I feel like there has to be levels. Like if you are, like you said, 17-year-old kid dating a 16-year-old, I'm sorry, that is not the same. That is not the same. And that shouldn't even be classified as that.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah. So it is in some states. If you have a 17 or 18-year-old boy and they have sex with their 16 or 15-year-old girlfriend, and the girlfriend's parents want to sue and put him in jail, they can do it. They can go to court. A lot of more effort is put into that than it is putting into children who are sexually abused by fathers and uncles and grandfathers and by coaches. You know, we we're getting a little bit more accountability, a little bit more visible, but not to the extent it needs to be.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

The government definitely picks and chooses who they're gonna put out there. Like, all right, we got five of them. We're gonna put out Tom and Jim, everyone else, we'll just we'll put them away for a couple more years. Let's let's not talk about them yet.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

It's like And how power how powerful. Who's the powerful ones who get the really good lawyers, right? If they even have a day in court, right? How much money do I have that I can my court battle went on for five years?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Two judges, two, three different lawyers, and it was trying to run itself out and see if I would just give up. Trying to waste all your money so you walk away. Yeah, or humiliate me, or you know, how much time can we spend? I went to court in Hawaii, which where I go, it takes about for a straight flight, nine hours. And it's not cheap to go from where I live to back to the state. And you know, it's Hawaii, it's paradise. Yeah, okay. So I I for five years had to go back and forth and back and forth, and the judge finally figured, well, she's not gonna come. So some one day there was a court hearing, and I showed up, and the court bailiff said, Oh, we didn't think you'd be here, and the judge never even came out of chambers. Stop it. My father, who represented himself because he wasn't gonna pay a lawyer, narcissists of the rules, got to go back into the chambers of the judge and spend 20 private minutes with the chamber of the judge.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Oh, that makes that just made my stomach turn. What in the actual hell is that?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah. So you know, it it's not just black and white, it's it's really can be horrible. So yeah. I don't wish it on anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Well, I I I get that, but like looking back at it now, would you have done anything differently? Say somebody is going through this. What do you tell them? What would you have done differently?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

I would have reached out and tried to find other survivors to support me. That's what I would have done differently. I did not have family support, so I I didn't have someone holding my hand. And I have just recently, for the very first time, because I wrote the book, met other survivors who had even close to similar situations than I did that were my age, that I could actually have a bond with. And I think that's really important because we feel very much alone when we go through these journeys. And I'm out there to tell people you're not alone. You're not, even if it's just me holding your hand. And I'm not a professional psychologist or anything, but the importance to know that you're not the only one who's gone through this and that we can we can support each other is really important. I know that since my book has come out, of course it's only been a little while, but women I've known for many, many years, and I'm in my 60s, so people I'm around are in their 70s, even 80s, older women have come up to me and just said, I've never told anybody, but I was abused, and then just walk away. And it's the first time they've ever told anybody. So I think that's really important that survivors come together and support each other. Feel safe. Yeah, because there is no other place to feel safe. I'd like to say there is, but we can't depend on those relationships because honestly, we don't know how to make relationships.

unknown 27:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

So, and and I'm I've been married for 42 years. I've had a long relationship with my husband, but there's been a lot of rocky road, and it might have been a lot easier if I'd had some role modeling of what good relationships needed to look like.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

I get that. When you're in chaos, or you know, when you're treated one way, it seems normal. Like that's just normal. You don't look at it and be like, wait a minute, I don't think there's something right. You're like, I'm used to this. This this is like my everyday.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Right. And and for me, I was just surviving for so long, just day-to-day, departmentalizing everything I did, working on my career and my children, making sure that my children were safe, my students were safe. You know, I was I was literally just trying to live a normal life for so long. And that just was a day-to-day. It took me until just recently, and I'm, you know, I'm old, 60, to really go through a day without just surviving.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

You look amazing, first of all. So give yourself some credit. Well, I have to tell you about that.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

So a lot of people go, Well, why don't you have more wrinkles? So I did find out that cortisol, when and I have cortisol like 90% rushing through my body all the time, my whole life, because it was from the time I was a little one. Cortisol actually helps you with the wrinkles, it's the only good thing. But seriously? I asked my dermatologist, I said, you know, you know, is this genetics or, you know, because I've only washed with what was it, Irish spring soap my whole life. I've never had a regime, I've never had any of those things other people had. And it was the Irish spring soap my husband bought that at Costco that I'd been using my whole life. And I said, you know, that seems weird. All my friends have, you know, all this fancy stuff. And he goes, No, you know, my doctors kind of know. And they'll say, No, it's it's it's the cortisol, it's probably the cortisol.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Is that why?

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yes, that's why you looked so good.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

I always say, I want to get a test just to see how much I really have going on in there because I feel like it's got to be backed up for miles.

Cortisol Body Damage

SPEAKER_00 29:54

So well, we know for me, I have five neurological conditions that I've been managing for 45 years, and they do havoc on my body, and they cost a lot of money to maintain and manage so that I can get out of bed every day and do what I do. So we know that cortisol just wrecks havoc. Just wrecks. I'm gonna say that's probably your lung issue is because we don't know about the lung issue, but we do know that I have I have migraines, debilitating migraines, 26-day migraines, that I have to take prophylactics and then I have medication when they come. I have RLS, which is restless like syndrome, it's neurological. And if I don't take medication for that, I can't sit down. When I sit down at the end of a day, it misfires, the neurons misfire, and the pain is is really horrible. I have SVT, which is electrical in my heart. So when the cortisol's going, my heart goes 190 beats per minute. I have Raynauds, so when the cortisol goes, I get black hands. They literally turn black, black and blue. Uh, it cuts off the so we know this cortisol does major damage. And again, going back to the financial cost of it, to be able to maintain just a normal life, and that's not any mental health, that's just neurological damage, cost our medical a lot, a lot of money. And that's too bad because insurance and all of those things. I'm gonna go on Medicare, and I'm really gonna need those things in the end of my life. But I wouldn't have had those needs if I hadn't been abused, and we know that.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Right. Right. I it causes so many issues, so many issues, and it's a shame. And a lot of it's also from keeping it because when you stuff it, stuff it, stuff it, people think, oh, I pushed it out, it's gone. Oh no, no, honey, it ain't gone. It is not gone.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

No, no, we feel like this big lump. And you know, my lungs, what my lungs ended up being is because of all the medications and because of being upset all the time, I threw up, not because I wanted to. I threw up almost every night, all night. And so I would aspirate my vomit, and they went into my lungs and calcified. So, yeah, it's not cancer. I'm very, very lucky, but I gotta work on that because I don't want any more of those nodules floating around in my lungs.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Can I ask you, how did this affect your relationship with your mother?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Oh, well, read the book. It's kind of funny, but it's it's it's an ongoing relationship. My mother is lives in a fantasy world, she still does, and she's very Christian, conservative based. So everything is God's will. Everything is, you know, she's looking forward to at 89 being in in heaven with God. Like that's that's what the next part of her journey, which is good for her, except for she, I tell a story in the book, and it's hysterical. We once in a while go on a vacation together. I I won't talk to her for a while, and then I'm like, I'm being such a bad child that I have to do something. So we go someplace. So we went on a cruise on the French Riviera, and we were in Monte Carlo's, and it was the Monte Carlo's Grand Prix, and it was the Cannes Film Festival, and we were docked in a small village in between the two. So to go to Monte Carlo, we had to get on a train. We get on a train, I talk about my hyper-vigilance, and please read this because it's much funnier than I'm making it sound. And there's a man with a black, black bag, and he drops the black bag and starts walking away. And with my hyper-vigilance, I'm like, you are not leaving that bag. And my mother is like, You are a crazy woman. And I'm like, no, we're getting off the train at the next stop. And it is a funny story. It ends up to be funny, also very serious. But in the end, we're sitting there and she finally leans over and says, Not that she's gonna get off the train because of the black bag, because I'm crazy, but because she has to go to the bathroom. So the trademaster, you know, opens the door and she goes running for the bathroom. I'm thinking, we have not blown up here. And my mother, all she can do is run to the bathroom. So she she lives in this world that when the book came out, she says, Let's go to Iceland. And I have to tell you, my mother is 89 and she runs up mountains. I'm not kidding. She runs up mountains at 89 years old. She does not stop. And she's like, Let's go to Iceland. And I'm like, Well, mom, you might not want to after you read the book. And she goes, Oh, uh I'll be fine. Let's go to Iceland. I said, Mom, let the book be released and read the book, and and then we'll talk about it. We go take a trip. So the book is released, and I finally text her and I said, Well, you know, we have to sign up for Iceland if we're gonna go. Have you read the book? And she says, No, you told me not to read the book. And I'm like, I didn't tell you not to read the book. So that's kind of the relationship with my mother. I have sparingly kept a relationship with my mother. It has been difficult. And since this is a podcast that talks about sexual abuse, when my mother biblically could leave my father, she did it because he had had an affair with me. So that is very, very difficult for me because I was an abused child. And she should have left because this man abused her children. Right. So yeah, that's still out for a judgment.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I get that. Yeah, that's that's crazy to even like flip it in her mind like that that it was an affair. Like, no, no, an affair means two people who are willing.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah. Well, and even, and I have to say this to survivors, I was never willing, so I don't carry guilt, but there are a lot of adults that do carry that guilt of childhood because they didn't know anything different and they were trying to survive, and they feel guilty that they let it happen. No child is responsible for this. No child, you can be 17 years old, you are not responsible for a predator sexually assaulting you, period. It it's just not even negotiable.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

I had a conversation with somebody at work, and we were talking about the Epstein things, and she's like, I knew what I was doing when I was 16, and then I'm like, You were a child, like, no, no, no, we're not we're not putting blame on anybody but the predators.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Like, absolutely thought you knew what you were doing, but you didn't because your brain was not developed, you were a child, absolutely, and and the thing is, is that these predators know this that if they put enough guilt in children, whether they're five or whether they're zero or whether they're I mean, I was groomed to not think it was wrong. I don't know why I always knew what my father was doing was wrong, and I always fought. I don't know. Again, I'm a Leo, who knows? But many, many children and adults that deal with it in silence are because they filled this guilt. And people like that woman you were talking to, who even say anything about, well, I was 16, I knew what I was doing. Why didn't you know what you were doing? It it shuts people up, it makes them silent because it's a judgmental thing, and you already feel, oh, what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? I just had a situation that was really terrible, and I'll tell you, I I fly a lot. I'm uh I was Diamond on Delta Airlines, and I was sitting next to a man, and I was in first class, so you would think, you know, these would be nice people. And he started out with, You're so beautiful. Oh, are you married? And by the end of the three hours, he was explicitly telling me how he was gonna fuck me and lick me. And I just I told this airline flight attendant, and they go, Oh, we're gonna just stop. We know this guy. He's he's we're gonna stop feeding him alcohol and it'll be fine. And I went back to the seat, and he lives in a suburb that I live in, and he has a lot of money, and he knew who I was because I was a choral director in a large high school for many, many years in our area. And I just went into that survival mode of okay, all right, let's just get off the plane, it'll be okay, and just survival mode thinking, okay, did I did I bring this on? Did did I do something that caused him to behave this way? And so I didn't, I didn't make the flight attendants report it. And when 12 hours later the cortisol started stopped flowing, and that natural survival tech instinct that I had as a child went away. I called the airline and I reported it on the airline, and she's like, Well, okay, I'll make a note of it. And I came home and my husband says, You that that's something you could call law enforcement about. And so I'm traveling in two days, and I called Delta and said, you know, I really want to use my regional upgrades because I want to sit in a seat that I'm not gonna sit by anybody. And could you please help me here? I have the regional upgrades. I asked for them six weeks ago, and they said, Well, we see the note about you being sexually abused and having PTSD, but you need to do an official report. This is a month later. So I do an official report, and I get a note, an email from a Delta executive yesterday saying, Well, we really can't help you. You need to now report it to the FBI. Are you kidding me? Now you're gonna put me through. You didn't keep me in a safe situation. When I reported it to your flight attendants, you're not gonna help me be feeling safe in my next 14-hour trip that I'm taking in two days. And now you want me to report it to the FBI and you're telling me you're gonna support me. So these kinds of situations are why people don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Clearly, he's done this before. If they know him and they know this is what he does, and oh, it's because he's having all this liquor. First of all, stop making excuses for the behavior, it's unacceptable. Second of all, you know who he is, put him on a no-fly, do something.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Well, here's the other thing the executive email said, Can you tell us his name? Excuse me? I told you I was sitting right next to him. You look it up in the manifest. Why do I have to tell you his name? When I left, the flight attendant said to me, and these were their words, you are such an angel. I'm such an angel. Why? Because I didn't get up and scream and yell and almost get arrested because I was making a scene. Right. So, so these kinds of problems with one in five of us sitting on an airplane and how we feel and all the things we bring, and then actually having the courage to tell the airlines what's going on, and then being kind of shoved aside again is why our system is so messed up.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Broken, so broken. I am so sorry. That is horrible, and shame on Delta. You should know better.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Makes I swear to God, pisses me off.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

I didn't mean to go on that tangent. I haven't usually done that. But it it it's frustrating because I'm one of those people who at least understand how I'm behaving and and my reactions to things. But when I get in those situations, I still go into survival mode. I mean, it's how my nervous system reacts. I didn't fly on airplanes for 25 years. So, and I tell the story of why I finally began to fly. And it was to go and testify. It was to do those things. And just to get on that airplane because I didn't feel safe, because we don't feel safe. Survivors need safe environments. And it's the kind of environment I tried to make when I was a teacher in my classroom. And it's an environment I try to make in my choirs that I that I conduct. I conduct adult choirs, a safe space, a safe space that people can go and feel completely safe enough to share that voice.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

So important. It really is. Community is everything. You got to find people who understand and don't judge, that are willing to listen. And sometimes it's not even always about getting advice, it's just having someone to listen to what you have to say.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Exactly. Exactly. So, but I think that that's a another discussion we need to have in our communities is how we make that safe space. Because in the community I live in, it's extremely judgmental. Extremely judgmental. I live in a community of survivors. We have a lot of Holocaust survivors, Chaldean survivors, Serbian survivors, African Americans from the inner city, and I'm very proud of my community. But the attributes that survivors have to have sometimes aren't the same ones that play nice in the sandbox. That's why we survived. So how do we make a safe community for all of these survivors, a safe place for all of us? And again, places like Delta Airlines flying, places like schools, places like synagogues and churches and mosques, those are supposed to be our safe places. How do we make them safe?

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Right. How do we make them safe? I don't have the answers to the questions. I I would really like to have that answer, but it's much more complicated than anybody knows. I think that goes back to accountability. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

People have to know that it's not accepted, it's not okay, it's not going to be brushed under the rug. Right now, it's a slap on the wrist and you're out. There is no accountability.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

But there's no accountability when it I'll give you an example. We have a large library in my community, and they have a library fair. And I took my book to them and I said, listen, I'm a low, you know, you know who I am. I've never talked about this before. Here's my book. I I really like you to at least have it in the library. And I applied to be in the library fair. I was denied. Why? Because they don't want a community member who was a teacher for 25 years who was on their local TV being at a book fair, sharing a book about a story of a little girl who had to grow up in a situation like that.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

I think people think if they ignore it, it'll just go away. And that's a myth. Like it's everywhere. It's in front of your face. Open your eyes, people. Like it's time we start talking because silence only benefits the predator. That is it.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Well, I love that you're you're fighting for the statute of limitations because there should be none. So that is huge if that could go away. Because that's probably another thing they look at. And you said though, it varies by state.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

It varies by state. Every state's different. There's a wonderful organization, if any of the listeners are interested in it, called Child USA. It's out at the University of Pennsylvania. And they do a lot of advocacy on these Statute of Limitations. They also have lots of documentation on what each state has and how we could change it in the United States as a whole. I mean, wouldn't it be great if the United States government have changed some laws during the Biden administration on federal land or over states? So trafficking, if you take a child from one state to the other. But that doesn't protect the children in their homes, which is we know that 80% of children who are sexually abused in the United States, it's someone that's close to them. It's not a stranger.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

So sad. It just is. And like sometimes you wonder were these predators victims themselves? Did you not get the help that you needed when it happened to you? Because clearly you know how it affected you. So the fact that you're now gonna do it to other people, like you're not gonna take that into account. Look at what happened to you. Like, why are we keeping this cycle going?

Breaking Generational Trauma

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Well, I think generational trauma, whatever it is, whether it's sexually or it's being physically beaten, which I was also physically beaten, or even psychologically manipulated, those are generational things. And it is really hard to break generational trauma.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

I broke mine. The cycle ended right here, and I refuse to do it to my son.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

I broke done. And I I did the same thing. I broke the cycle. I have four grown children. My oldest is 41, my youngest is 29. I'm gonna have my fifth grandchild, May 3rd. And so I'm I'm breaking the cycle. I've broken it. And it was hard because I would like to say that when I became an adult and a mother, that I totally broke off the relationship with my father. But it wasn't that easy. The sexual part did. You'll read about a baseball bat and a whole bunch of things. But I still, I still had him in my life when my first child was was born. And I eventually did. I broke off, like never talk to him again. But it wasn't that easy. It's hard. It's hard because it's your family and it's confusing. And more than anything, we all want to be safe in our family. And by breaking off those relationships and setting those boundaries, we no longer have the family we'd always at least wished for. And we don't really have, you know, the bricks to make our own family. We have to go find them. And that's why it's piece by piece. There is no easy fix to this. There's no easy, easy getting out of it. It's complicated. But piece by piece, I've been able to build a life and stop that generational trauma.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Right. And it's so important. You got to get rid of toxicity in your life. It does not serve you, anybody. I don't care what kind. If you're in an abusive relationship, if you're being molested or anything by anyone, you got to get out. You got to get help. You got to tell somebody. There's just there are resources out there. So many people think, like you said earlier, it it's not happening to anyone else, and there's no resources. There are tons, but you do, you got to go look for them.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Yeah. So I have resources both in my book and my website for other survivors and kids that are going through this. But I also talk about setting boundaries. I did not set boundaries in lots of relationships. In my work relationships, I didn't set boundaries with my bosses. And I learned, I'm just starting to do that. And I tell I'm a storyteller, so I tell lots and lots of stories. But even in a choir community that I'm trying to build, I'm right now having to set some boundaries on that toxicity. You know, when you have people, you have gossip, but you you have to set those boundaries that you're not going to be part of talking bad about people, about not lifting people up. And everyone has that responsibility. Everyone does. And they don't understand how important that is. Because if one of five of us are survivors and inside of us, we're having this turmoil that no one knows about, what you might say is affecting that person even 10 times more. Why do you want to do damage on that person? And if you do, then you need to look at yourself.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Right. That means there's something ugly inside of you that you're pushing down and don't want to face.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Right. Exactly. Exactly. So setting those boundaries is something that I'm learning now. And again, I'm over 60. It took me a long time to set those boundaries. I'm just gonna, I'm, I'm gonna do what they say. I'm gonna be nice. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna work really hard. If I just work hard enough, it's just all gonna go away and be perfect. And and so as you take that journey piece by piece, and I'm gonna tell you, sometimes people just kick those build building blocks down and you get to start all over again. But as you do it, you know, with experience and support, it's it's a nicer Lego project as you go along.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

And maybe you'll find new pieces that you didn't have before.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

So exactly. Exactly. And meet new people like you. I mean, I feel very fortunate to be able to be on this podcast, even if it didn't go out to other people, to have this conversation with you. It's important for my growth and and for my understanding of the bigger world instead of just my world.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Of course. And I love that I'm able to give you a platform to share your story because every story matters. It matters. There's value to you, and you need to know that.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

I say in the epilogue, or I think it's actually not the epilogue. I think it's beginning of the book. I wrote something called From Me to You. And I think I say, you know, everybody doesn't have to get on a public stand and tell their story, but every story needs to be celebrated in one way or and listened to.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

I love that. So true. So true. So is there anything else you wanted to add?

Survivor Message And Resources

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Well, I just want to encourage, I have a couple agendas. First, I want to tell every survivor out there and every child or every adult that's a survivor. This is not your fault. You are a survivor, not a victim, and you're not alone. There is resources. Whether you want to go on my website or your website and reach out, or just someplace that's local, you are not alone. And then I want to say to the people that live with people like that is that you need to educate yourself what it's like to be us. That's what my book does. It educates the people what it's like to teach children, or what it's like to live with someone who has the silent trauma inside of them, and to give them grace and to give them empathy, because so often that's not given to someone who gets triggered. Give them some room and understand that their reactions aren't always going to be at the same level as everybody else's. And to say to the wider world, you need to help us. We're fighting for your children, we're fighting for your wives and your husbands and for your boyfriends and the people you love all around you. And you need to help help us fight because if you stay silent, we're never going to fix this problem.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Right. Do it for your grandkids because this is the world that we're trying to build for them.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Safer world than what we have right now.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Absolutely. Yes. Even if we can just do it a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Right. I'm going to make sure I also put the link to your website in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

And your book is on Amazon. And did I read Barnes and Noble?

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Yes, it's on Barnes and Noble's and Amazon. It's on lots of different sites. And it, if you want a hardback copy, contact me and we'll get you a hardback signed copy. We can do that as well. And you know, I'd like to encourage people, if you like the book, to share it with people and maybe even have a book club because that'll bring the discussion to your community on how you can change things and how you can help.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

You might be surprised how many people have a story to tell you afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm ready to listen.

Final Encouragement To Speak Up

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Well, Cheryl, thank you so much. This was great, great information. And I think this is gonna help people who are deciding do I speak up or do I keep trying to push it down? You need to speak up. It's time to speak up.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

It is. And thank you for giving us this platform to do that. Of course.