The Night a Soldier Became the Enemy | Bart Womack, CSM

“Imagine being in a war zone, surrounded by your team—only to be attacked by one of your own. On March 22, 2003, that nightmare became reality. Stay tuned for sis firsthand account will make you rethink what it means to trust, to lead, and to survive. If you think threats always come from the outside, this episode will open your eyes—and maybe even save a life.

>> Tiffanie: Have you ever been stabbed in the back? Try being shot at by someone on your own team. That's what happened to Command Sergeant Major Bart Cormack. This story is real. It's wild. And he is here with us this week. Thank you so much for being here, Bart.

>> Bart Womack: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.


You survived Camp Pennsylvania's attack in Kuwait by one of your own soldiers

>> Tiffanie: Of course, you have seen the worst of humanity and some of the best leadership. Where do you go from there?

>> Bart Womack: Well, I guess I would say that you take the worst of humanity and there's always lessons to be learned. There's always a takeaway. You've got to figure out what the weapon is. this particular thing way before we get into it. You know, the lives lost in bodies make of like what. What's to be. But there's always the takeaway. You have to figure out what it's Good.

>> Tiffanie: Right. In 2003, you survived Camp Pennsylvania's attack in Kuwait by one of your own soldiers. That has to be the most. What's the word I want like, not disgrace, but like. Yeah.

>> Bart Womack: Ah.

>> Tiffanie: That a military person could ever do is to attack their own.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah, it's quite, you know, it was quite eye opening and, I don't know if I ever had a reaction. I don't know that I ever really reacted. When I started to react to the fact of how cool it was, you know, by preparing a name and learning his way on. But there wasn't like this, oh my gosh, or I can't believe it. I don't think I ever said that. Everything happened so fast. And even after it, I never said that and said, I can't believe this happened. It did happen. So then it was really the mindset of understanding that if it happened once, it could happen again. I think that was really our mindset. I mean, immediately, immediately it was, how do you prevent it from happening? First and foremost. But it can happen again, right?

>> Tiffanie: For sure. And this happened in the very early morning. Correct. Everybody was sleeping.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah. Right. I'll walk you in the audience through it. So March 22, 2003, that started up. We had already been deployed to Kuwait for the invasion of Iraq. Who was that was called an intermediate staging base that you can't. Pennsylvania, it was called. And I've been there for about 20 today. Some have been there a little bit more. And we had put the final touches on our final plan. Particular part of the plan to invade a rock place. From our unit's perspective now we're calling a report. First day one invasion, first gay combat, team. So there's about 4,000 plus of US bus on this particular camp we had another unit there which made it about 5,000 people on his camp. Camp was about, I tell people, 10, football fields. Big was probably 20. It was humongous. It's so hard to describe. And all around it just imagine a big old circle was 12 foot. Was a 12 foot berm of dirt, you know on an incline. And then at the top of that constant, you know, so very hard to kind of, kind of penetrate. And then it had guard towers all around it that people were man. So we didn't put the final touches on our owner plan. And it was almost like a release to have done that, you know, later in the days, you know, starting to get dark and not necessarily let's let your. Let your hair down, but it's really okay. Donnie had this done. Now whether it'll be crossing the border to invade Iraq that particular time. This is a Saturday at that particular time is scheduled to be a Thursday. I was going to watch golf that night. The unit that was that occupied campus the main for us had a television and television was in the tent were myself and the commander and the brigade executive officers left. So I figured out how to get golf on television. So let's go watch golf. Big Tiger woods fan and Tiger woods playing what's called the Art of Farmer Invitational. So I went to this new shop that we had on, on the camp and bought some snacks and everything. And I was going to stow in and watch some golf, eat my snacks. And our ammo just came right before it started getting dark. That that was delivered in my driveway. So I had that and I was still a load animal. My plate was slick off my backstills. so I'm sitting there watching often loading magazines. And the kick flap would just kind of blow and you could do a scrap up against the grand lay and kind of get your attention all. It's just a win. And then it happened a second time. So this table I was printing out was at the end kind of the far right of the table, right at the. I could see the floor in front of me and I see these sparks and I just immediately know that this is some type of grenade that's barking before the. And so I jump up, run to the back of the tent to get the commander up from asleep. It's the first time he had gone to sleep early, which is like 10 o' clock at night. And the executive officers in a tent as well. He's on the other side of the Table. He could see what I thought, so I knew he could take care of himself. But the commander, who was sleeping, had no idea what was going on. So I run to the back of the cave and get him off. Hey, you got to get up. There's a grenade. You're about to go off. You got to get out here. I gave him time to put on his boots, and I counted three. I said, we're going to run on three. I count to three to take off, running right down in the middle of it. So then I have a front entrance and really a back entrance, but the back is closed and called a temperature. This huge air conditioning, heating urine in the back. And you really can't get out because it's all tied up.


A grenade explodes in the second tent, and two people are shot

So really, exit was the front of where the grenade rolled it. So I'm running down that aisle with my hand up as if my arm's gonna flip a grenade. They know what else to do. I'm just running like this down another. I don't know. And I, get outside. It's pitch dark outside, and the commander's not there. I don't know where it is. I'm calling for him in hush tones. I don't want to give my position away. And, no response. Then I hear a gunshot, and I hear a yell. I know that it's the brigade executive officer. I could feel that I passed by him as I was running out of tent. So he tends to have this little entrance called the vestibule. And I could feel that he was in there as I was running, as I was running out. So when I heard that shot and heard that y' all, I knew it was him. So I reached for my weapon. Tensor cockpit. That has a magazine in it, but it doesn't have ammo. So what has ammo in it? And you cock it, it goes. When it doesn't, it just goes in the bolts to the rear because the magazine with no ammo, just locks it to the rig, you know? So I'm really kind of screwed at this point. People say don't bring a knife to a gunfight. You don't bring a weapon. No rounds to a gunfight either. So the only way I knew to arm myself was, go to the top, which is about 20 yards behind me. I run to the top, run the hollering, give me an M4. Give me ammunition, and give me night vision goggles so I can see. I, position people inside the talk. That all the interest is to guard the talk, which is tactical, right? Since there and finally get the weapon and everything, go back to my tent to go back to my tent to look for the commander and executive officers. I don't. Okay, all right. So you don't stop it there. I'll pick up. So I go back to my tent to look for the commander, executive officer, and they're not there. So I immediately go back to the talk, and no one's outside but me. Like, no insurgents are out there. No one else is outside. I go back to the talk. I summon someone to go to my tent to look for them. Just keep looking for them until you find them. While I look for the enemy. So there's no sign of the enemy. Like there's. There's. There's nothing in the time it took me to do that. But I come back out the second time out of the tung. The grenade had exploded in the second tank. grenade had exploded in the third tier. Now I'm in the first there. So I exploded in first. When I exploded in second, why they exploded in third. Then another person that shot. But I come out to second time. I'm, challenged, and someone says, like, who's there? I identify myself. And he asked me what's going on. I said, I don't know what's going on. Major old name has been shocked, and he serves with the last Captain Skeeper. So now we know we have two people shot. Still no wires to find any insurgents before identifying anything. So the people in the second tent, they began to get up after the gunshot and the explosion at the first tent. And a grenade explodes at a 15 degree radius. So if you're below the 15 degrees, you're probably safe. Anything above 15 degrees, you're in the right smackdown. middle of the black there. So because some of them had started to stand up when that grenade came into that there, then exploded two of them that were staggering up like caught water in the shrek. They're spreading all over the place. It would make you worn up no matter where you were. Grass hit the jewels 15 degrees above that flat in the turret. Some of them had become. Had began to come out of the tier. One of them was shot, went blank in the back. One had began to exit the turret and realized he forgot his ammo, went back inside the turret to get his ammo. But then when he started to come back out again, that's when that grenade exploded in that tier. he was 17 inches away from the grenade as well as other cab. As well as other people that were in the tick. So got hit with Shrapnel there. So now, you know, the search is on, you know, for the insurgents. That's what happened. Two people shot people, other people are injured by grenade shrapnel. I was putting people in security positions on this, on this one wall that was there around the top. So you have to get to be mindful here that we hang up all these people in the camp, but the headquarters and the only parts that has been attacked. And it's kind of smack dab in the middle of the camp almost. So everything around us, is our own soldiers, but we're playing perimeter there to guard that area and the weapons are pointing out, but to pointing out if there would be an insurgent as well as playing, you know, fed our own soldiers. So that's kind of, kind of set everything up.


Search is still on for insurgents. The sky siren is going off. A huge fireball is in the sky

So at this point, the triage began with the casualties, trying to get them identified. Who's most critical. When I went back into that talk that second time, I asked for reinforcements of a tune to come over to help. Then the medic was on the radio and asked that if we need. Asked if we needed a FLA with bill bid or ambulance. I told her, yes, of the cop. So the triage is happening. The field instructors are getting loaded into this FLA FOA is moving from that location over to the 8th station that's on the camp. So once all of them are taken to the eighth station, they're being treated there to be loaded onto a medevac helicopter, taken to a combat support hospital. So all these things are happening simultaneously while again putting people in positions to guard that area. The intelligence officer had been walking around all night checking bunkers. The sky siren is going off. It's just massive chaos. At this point. We had a light that was in obsidian attack, which was turned off during the attack. So we finally got that turned on so we could see there's still no signs of insurgents. So I say something had to change near the camp. And then I'm told that interpreters that came in the night before, well, bingo, had to be them go find them. So after a quick first, you find the interpreters, you know, got them on the ground, head behind their head, weapons fire at their heads. We take them into company, interrogate them just to learn that they have nothing to do with it. So now we're back to square one where it started. So at this time, the first helicopter lands on a medevac. So people are being loaded on. That helicopter takes off and it flies to the cat, which is about a one minute flight about 500 meters away. They pretty much up and down. That one takes off at Franklin. Helicopter lands and being loaded. A huge fireball is in the sky and we don't know what it is, but all we ascertain is that now we're being attacked from the ground in the air. So we think that it was a gun that was shot out of the air. Right, that's for this particular part. We learned that it was actually a British Tornado fighter jet retired from a mission and the Patriot venue after hearing gunshots and explosions on the ground. just figured that fast moving object was a stud installed on their radar and shot it down. So now we have friendly fire going. We shot down an allied jet. We've been, you know, United States. So that second helicopter medevac, they're being told because of that explosion and not knowing what it is, that they can't go to the cat, that the one minute flight away, you have to go to a different cast 75 kilometers away. So Captain Steven got shot in the back on that flight that arguably, you know, may have cost him his life. Search is still on for the insurgents. There was no clear evidence the commanders finally bought into the top. He had actually, when he came out of the tent doing exo, had wandered into the second tier to help out with some of the triage in that tier. They kind of get to the wherewithal and everything in orders that we need to get accountability of our personnel. When that call goes out, we learned that one person is missing starting Akbar. So our grenades am ignition. So that's when he becomes the number one stuff. So the coach goes off of him. Upon hearing this news that come out of the talk, I'm telling leadership that who we're looking for. And so they had the look and the question of. You mean it's one of our own? Yeah, he's probably the same thing we are. So, I'll let you decide how you're going to tell your supporters of what we're looking for. I'm not going to tell you how to do that. Major Warren, the intelligence officer, came out of 10 frame time. He was checking bunkers all night. So he realized when he came out that there was one bunker that he had gone to. Now he'd been walking around, like I said, checking bunkers. There's just going to say walking toward this bunker like he had done all night and who's in the bunker. So when he asked, the response is zargotbar Akbar didn't know we're looking for him and there was another person in the bunker. That person responds. So you got to think about this. So Akbar is a guy's missing. He's the number one suspect. He's in the bunker with somebody else. But right now, allegedly had done something. We have to find out if he had or not. So he owes him his weapon. Major Warren does, and then he keeps walking. Is it different themselves behind take them down. That's how exactly it. So when asked if had he done there, you know, the answer was yes. And why he did it Said to keep y' all from killing our women and raping our children. So at the time, I didn't know what o U R meant. I didn't put, two and two together. That just the hour did not make sense to me at that particular moment. So he's apprehended. He's flex cuffs. So he gets his weapon and gives it to me, and I smell it to see if it's been residue and fired. And it has. By the time he was being flex cuffed and everything, I had gone to my tent to get ammo. Finally 10, two other gear because I didn't have that on either. And, but I noticed when I went into my tent that I saw a piece of brass laying on the ground. And also inside of my chair where I'm a flat, that whole area was just devastated from the grenade clap. Like my whole area was just tore to the point where had I been sleeping. I watched the tiger always play golf. They'd always be talking to me, right? You wouldn't be hearing this story from me. So now I'm pissed. I mean, I. I want to hurt him. So I'll leave my tent, I go back over to where he's apprehended. that's when they give me that weapon. I smell it. I can tell it's definitely something fired. I take it and back to my tent area where the piece of brass is and kind of lay, them side by side. I didn't clear the weapon, which is standard, you know, sop if you will, to clear the weapon to make sure it's safe. But I didn't clear. I turned on safe, but I didn't clear it because I didn't want to disturb the ammunition.


Ty Trippy says he knew which grenade sparked before it blew up

Here's the reason why. Those rounds, they have numbers on the back, which means they come from the same lot. The numbers are called a dotic. The only thing what that means, I don't remember. But the numbers are the same. So that piece of brass on the ground, those Numbers, if it came from that weapon would match the ammunition that's in that weapon. So include that round that was chamber. So put the weapon down there, felt the Winter Guard and say if you stay there, I'm the only person that can be leave. So you can actually, you can say that watch too much CSI to come up with that one. I don't know where that came from. But it was a very pivotal you know, move to account for him having you know, shot those part of those riots. There was also some grenades that he had that I told the guys put those back in the bunker. That was the safest place for those grenades. So in my opinion, I told you that first. Ray came in that sparked first. That was actually an incendiary grenade. It starts fires now again I saw the sparks. I went and go and go over and look what is that? Oh, that's not what it's going to blow up. Yeah, I wasn't doing it. I don't blame you. So I had no idea, I had no idea which my grenade was. In fact, I tell people that we were in the land of not quite right and that was a not quite right grenade that was sparking before blew up. That was as close as I was going to get. But the reason the commander didn't make it fire to tape was because a grenade, thread grenade had been thrown into the tent and that did blow up and knocked him back into the speaker. He was injured from that grenade so we had him in custody. And like I said earlier, you couldn't find him that it would be one of your own. But you know, so my takeaway from that was that we don't go home with people at night so we don't know what they're playing. Right. And that no profession, level of education, ideology or religion is above reproach. There is no profile the inside of the closer than you think. Yeah. I want you and your audience to continue to hold the military in high regard. There's nothing bash anything but there's rogues everywhere. We didn't know that he was joining the military to commit this attack. So there's bad ones everywhere.

>> Tiffanie: Do you think the military some red flags on mental health or.

>> Bart Womack: That's a good one in this particular case, you know. Now he was not of a the best performing soldiers but there's a whole bunch of those, believe it or not, still maintain the rank of sergeant when it wasn't bad enough for him to be busted from sergeant to specialist. He wasn't working in his job for that rank. But he was, he was still the sergeant. So some display follows. Not the first. A whole bunch of those. All of them know Ty Trippy, but there's a whole bunch of those. Right? So he was. I don't remember if he was seeing any medical, medical professionals at that time. I just knew he wasn't the best of the former. That was kind of the thing. but here's why there wasn't a red flag on mental health. Two years later is a trial in 2005. So in the trial my diary was, was recovered and used as evidence in a trial in 1993. He wrote, I do not like the military. They have too much control over people's lives. I suppose I am just anti government. A Muslim should see himself as a Muslim. Only his loyalty should be. Only his loyalty should be to Islam only. We dive his words. But I will tell you that religion don't put. Doesn't pull the trigger. People do. 1996. Anyone who stands in front of me shall be considered the enemy and dealt with accordingly. 1996. Destroying America was my plan as a child, as a Jew now and in college, my life will not be complete unless America is destroyed. Destroying America is my greatest goal. 1998, he joins the military. So if he doesn't play it. February 2003. Remember this was March 2003. He wrote, I am not going to do anything as long as I stay here at Fort Campbell. But as soon as I am in Iraq, I'm, going to try to kill as many of them as possible. So there was no sign of that because that was in his diary. And that's why I figured go home with people at night so we don't know what they're, what they're doing, what they're planning. Seems that good enough not to leak out what he was planning to do. I didn't think that now he says when he gets to Iraq, he didn't wait for Iraq, you know what happened in Kuwait. But as soon as the animal came, it happened. So he was on guard. So our animal came, like I said, right before dark. So the commanders had an opportunity choice to either put a guard on it or issue it in the morning when it was light. Or so no one likes put vehicles in issue with that way. this unit, when our supporting units decided they would put a guard up in daylight, so he was on the guard and it was hit with another soldier, told that soldiers, hey, I'll take over the rest of the ship for this last half hour or whatever. Just go to sleep. I got it from here. Well, I'm sorry to tell you to go and sit there in one sleep. So, when that happened, he opened up the crates of ammo, took out what he needed, the grenades and all that type of stuff, and you know, lots of time now where he was guarded. Ammo was about 300 meters from the headquarters and the way the kids and everything was set up for, he was. If the whole mortal stuff around there was just to kill, he could have killed a lot more. And coming over to the headquarters. But his mindset was, I, take out the head, the body will follow. Head meaning headquarters, personnel, body meaning all of our soldiers in the entire major from a mindset of, this happening to being devastated and all that which worked. obviously they attacked the headquarters, but it worked to the point where, you know, people were devastated and not understanding and all that type of stuff. So later that day, you know, it's happened about 1 in the morning.


Warren says trust goes out the window when you go into a war

So now it's, it's, you know, it's midday. CID is doing an investigation and everything. And let's take everything out of tents. And several of our soldiers was low on this wall and you could see their heads down. They're grieving and they needed to grieve. I get it. But the looks on their faces and everything, I was like, to me, there's no way we can cross that border and fight over. It ain't happening. I'm, looking at their faces, it ain't going to happen. And I just tell them all to get up, get up, get out here. I don't care where you go. I know you got to agree, but you ain't going to do it here. Go from Playdel, out of my sight or I can't see big camp, find a place and go do it. I'm sure they thought I was crazy, but they didn't see what I saw. And I knew that. I knew this unit at that particular time couldn't go fight the war.

>> Tiffanie: So you just did one.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah. Yeah. It's a little different when. It's different. When you go into a war and you know who the enemy is and you're like, they're on that side, they're. You're on this side, different way. They're right behind. They've been shooting in your back. Literally, you know, so he's taken off, CID takes him. But when he shot the guy point blank in the back, the fourth tent, people had begun to come out of his head right as, right as that Soldier fails. And then they saw. Now we know it to be Akbar just kind of run, keep running. Everything was happening really fast. They came out of Jim Vulge, but in start and one person thought that he saw two people run, which meant that there was an accomplice. Now, CID ruled out fact that there being an accomplice, right? But this guy who sat here had known him for 14 years. And even though CID said no, there was an accomplice, he did this just by himself. That just kind of stuck with me. One and then two. You know, one of my soldiers tried to kill me. Is there. Is there somebody else? You know, TRD says no, but we had one do it. They just said no when it happened in the first place too. So that night, I remember, a ton of our own soldiers come over, guard that headquartered area. So you can imagine furthering them around the headquarters, guarding the headquarters from our own accelerators. So good. It's imaginative perimeter and they're facing out. But there's. What's the point that the rest of them are committed. So suffice it to say, the first thing that, went out the window for me was trust.

>> Tiffanie: I'd say. So.

>> Bart Womack: That'S what happened that night. We did it most of the next night. So after that first night, that happened that night. And then the next day we had a memorial service for one of the guys got killed. And then the next day we left. So that's probably the best thing that happened to us. They know he crossed the border, going to. All right, so end up being moved out too. Good.

>> Tiffanie: That's insane. And I mean, the betrayal is just so deep. And how do you come back from that? Especially, like when you come back home. Did that stick with you, that, you know, you can't trust people the way you thought you could?

>> Bart Womack: Yeah, well, like I said, the best thing to happen to us was to leave that camp and head toward Iraq. So that's Warren. But then in doing so, okay, now we have. They have another enemy. I like to say the real enemy. We have the known enemy. That's what we have now. We have the known enemy. So it's a little bit different. And with the known enemy is the more unknown. but, you know, it's. You know, they're that way. Like they're right there in front of you, coming from behind you, like. Like this one. So it's a little bit different, but it definitely takes over your mind because it's more, you know. So that probably stuck with me, I think stuck with a lot of People believe it or not, you know, that happens in the very, very beginning. And now we are still a year into Iraq, that we're there. Like no one ever talked about that. Like nothing was ever said. Now why, I don't know is that I think you just move on because you have to move on. Because the end of still this war going on, you still have these things going on. It's just going to happen now that people have to deal with it each night before they went to bed or, you know, daily, I don't know. But you never heard about it. No one talked about it. We didn't see anyone that looked like they were visibly dealing with it or anything like that. like there was. There wasn't a time where we had to have a counseling or film someone someplace by virtue of something that happened that night, which is pretty great surprise, to be honest with you. Especially those who were injured, but not bad enough to be medevac. The other ones who were medevac, they're supposed to hear that they never came back.

>> Tiffanie: I can't imagine.


Is it an insider threat when a student commits a school shooting

Go on for another year.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah. I just think you, you, if it wasn't for the war, then maybe things would have been different, but because of, because there was a war going on. You know, I mean, I didn't, I didn't. I never thought about it. There wasn't a time where it came up that m. There's more. Present day. Don't ask me. I know there's nothing that prepares you for that. You know, everyone's made up, differently. It's just. But that's, that's the way it happened for me, that someone bought. Only time it was brought up was that there's a thing called an Article 32 hearing. So they have to have this hearing to decide if there's going to be a court martial or not or if there was going to be one, that you still have to do the hearings, the procedure. Right. So we had to do that by, you know, video telecom trips. That was the only time that that incident came up. Now, telecoms was probably only there for about 30 minutes or something like that, but that whole year, that's the only time that they came up. So fast forward two years. Two years after that, the trial happens. In 2005, he's convicted of two counts of premeditated murder and three counts of attempted premeditated murder. They say things to death. 46 now at the United States Disciplinary Barracks for Memorial's Care. So there's four people there on death row, but you should be mindful that no one's been executed since 1961.

>> Tiffanie: You had someone looking over you that night.

>> Bart Womack: Well, that's the shore. There's no doubt about that. Guy looking over me. I said, you play golf? You said, why try to play golf? you know, because I had not been playing golf then that grenade where I slept with a mitt and he rolled in the frag grenade instead of the incendiary grenade, then I never would have saw sparks. As it wasn't. I didn't hear it come in the tent. Splash kind of moved. But it had moved probably five minutes prior to that because the wind would blow and just scrape up against the fork. But I didn't see that come across, I guess called the sparks. But it fragmented. Then it didn't spark first. Then seeing a grenade is like, a torch I send you to everyone's like. Like that almost. But the sparks ring emit the flames. Right. And start the fire. That's what. It's just his purpose. But the fire grenade just laid there and explodes. So had he thrown that instead of incendiary. They're not still in there. Like a 35th degree radius, 15 degree radius. I'm sitting right here. All this is just big. Yeah. So, you know, definitely I like to say that, you know, for a purpose in the world, that God put that in me to write this book and tell the story, to make people aware of that. And it definitely to do the work of providing for the situational way of strategies to mitigate mass murder inside threat attacks and academic institutions, the workplace and places of worship. Because as I was writing a book, all these others attacked and I was. I would look at them and see if they align with this one. You know, is it. Is it an insider threat? In my opinion, if a student commits a shooting at a school, it's an insider threat. The math shooter or the math student is just. That's the result. That's not what it's called. I know that's what they call it. But if he had a. Now they're using cars. Had to kill people. Student on cars. They wouldn't be called a mass shooter. And you'd just be, you know, whatever they call those. I'm not even sure what they call other than, you know, you kill students with a car or igboard a car. But my point is more than 90% of the time it's someone who's from the inside. You know, it's a fellow student, it's a fellow employee. It's someone Who m knows the framework of the place that they're attacking, you know, really on the inside. They know someone close on the inside that used to go to the school, they used to work there, they are currently working there, or currently a student. So it's an insider threat. And that's the thing, you know, trying to get that demographic that I'm, that I'm speaking to and teaching these strategies that that threat is right here already, that you students and your employees, you're the first one, you're the first line of defense. Yeah. Law enforcement got self defense. Yeah. You have a school resource officer. I get it. You got one, you got to go inside of school, you might have more. But the student that's going to end up doing the shooting can watch where resource officers go and know where they are and where they are. And they're going to pull off what they're going to pull off long before that resource office get there. They're not going to do any final, however, not any situational, proactive, situation oriented strategies. You know, they can mitigate it long before the attempt.

>> Tiffanie: Oh yeah, A lot of times these have been planned out for a long time. They sit and watch and plan.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah. I say they watch, they blend, they befriend, then. That's what happened. So even in Florida State, shooting here a couple weeks ago, every time these things happen, you know, what's the motive, what's the mark, what's the motive? And if the person didn't identify a motive or reveal the motive, then it keeps us guessing. Right.


In most cases, something was presented that wasn't, that was overlooked

In most cases, more than 90% of the time, something was presented that wasn't, that was overlooked in some way, straight form or fashion. So when I say that the fellow student is the first line of defense, here's a prime example from that student, this student, Eichner. But they go to the next Phoenix Eichner. He belonged to this group. And this group is like a playable group of students. Right. And the only rule they had, the only rule they had was can't be a Nazi. Ah. Other than that, you can be in a group. But Eichner expressed, white supremacist extremism as well as far right extremism, to the point where it kicked him out because of that he was extreme for them. And. But that was the sign, that was the sign of something. So think about this. You have felt students in this group on this campus where there's fellow students, and you have so one. So I mean, different. First you have a belief you'd have an ideology, then you could become radicalized about it or you become extremist about it. Once they're exclaimed about it, it's just a matter of time before it's built in some way, shape, form or fact. So he put everything in front of him. He was so extreme, they kicked him out of the group, but they didn't tell anybody. So he's not good enough for your guru. Or you're, afraid that he's so extreme in your group, you don't know what's going to happen. But what about these fellow students on his campus? They don't even know. Can you tell? No one.

>> Tiffanie: It's like that saying, if you see something, say something.

>> Bart Womack: That was the thought. That was an opportunity. Yeah. They're the first line of defense. So when I wrote the book, that's why I say no, God sent me to do this work. I put those strategies in the book. And I was following different types of attacks. I said, well, even if the military doesn't do something, they don't change what they're doing. They keep doing what they don't, keep getting what they're getting. And then six years later, in 2009, a, major United States army kills people at Fort Hood, Texas. Same thing, same reason, same ideology, but it's a copycat world. He saw a soldier who do it and get away with but pull it off right up on everybody's nose. And he did the crank there because nothing, was done by and since that time, you know, so unrivallably, in my opinion, Akbar, I mean, the attacker for whatever Freddie Osan was inspired and motivated by Odbar could have just been a cop. Care if he did it? I can do it, you know. And then further down the line in 2019, a Coast Guard officer, he was plotting to kill, some politicians, getting his list to kill politicians. And the only reason he got called was because he was using the government computer to see if these politicians had, secret service protection and everything. And he was using his computer for that and some other things to look him up and everything. And that's how he got caught. But he had like, you know, Fort Knox of ammunition in his house. Ammunition. Over a hundred guns and everything in this hit list. Yeah. But still, it just goes on. I think all his fiber, our fabric squad barred. This was another soldier that forced to Enjoy almost in 2021, he had joined the military short enough to join the military. Within a year, he's communicating with either and eventually with certain either some of Our, not our warframes, but our fighting tactics. And he wanted to deploy with his unit to help Ivers kill fellow soldiers while deployed. Like join honor to do that. All inspired by you did it so I can do it. So that's like what that quote, that no professional level of education, ideology or religion is above reproach. There is no profile. The inside of threat is closer than you think. It didn't have a color, it didn't have a look, it didn't have. It didn't have a foot you get there from. It didn't have a language that they speak.

>> Tiffanie: You never really know someone's true motives.

>> Bart Womack: Right.

>> Tiffanie: That's scary.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah, I think. And so in doing a book, like I said, I started following all these different stories. I'll share one more. Was a colonel commander of Canadian Royal Air Force. And he eventually murdered two, people. He was highly regarded as the commander of the base. Right? Highly regarded. He had been the Queen's guard before. he was breaking into females houses and taking their underclothes. And he just take their underclothes. Sometimes he just put them on. He might tie him up and put them on in front of them. or he would just take them back to his house. So he finally got caught in his house was just, you know, a fracture of ladies underclothes and you end up killing two women, one of which was flagged as all the soldiers. So like you say, you, don't know that one. Then there was another thing that came up when I was writing a book that said these are insider threats. So I come up with the idea, how do we mitigate these studies? Because the Ogbor one, like I told you about his diary dose, we were never going to know. Who aren't going to know that because we didn't have the diet. We don't go home with them at night. But actually with these proactive strategies, the first one of them, m. So when I'm speaking to the audiences, I lay out these strategies and the first one is trust no one. I know people are going to trust, but to hear trust no one makes them think how open makes them think about how they're going to trust and who they trust. That's the thought process. But I'm saying trust no one. Then I remind them, hey, I trusted too. I trusted the person who took three most ideas to defend the constitution against our enemies, foreign and domestic. And then he tried to kill me, but did kill two people and more than 13 others. So. And as I picked Dozier here, that Was the first thing that went out the window for me was struggling.


I was apartment building manager when five police officers showed up with guns drawn

But I hold uniform in the army and the whole dad through that. Next one is observe, lesson and report. I used to be, a lifted military. I was apartment building manager. So I left the military. I was actor and military technical advisor in Hollywood. We also managed an apartment building. And I had just taken on this apartment building. And, you know, I was coming out of one door and I think it's January, February. I come out this door and something's fun because it was starting to get dark and I realized the light wasn't on. So I go back in the building and I come out another door, the light's not on. So I go back in. I, get a pen and a piece of paper and I'll start writing down these. So I came outside, look at the building, try to see where lights are on, what's working or not working, right? And I'm writing down, I think someone's looking at me right now. They should think that this is business behavior. You know, it's casing. I go back in, come out another door, do the same thing, go back in. So now I'm, checking the interior lights that when I make an order, I can just make one or I get up to the tick four. Then I hear, okay, I know what this means. Somebody behind me and they have, they have a gun, right? You know, they're the police and you know, put your hands up. drop within your hand. There goes a pen, there goes paper. Hands behind your head. Get on your knees. They come behind me, right? Well, before they get that far, I say, okay. I hear the voice that talks a little bit. I know it sounds yummy. Than my would have been an accident. You know, there would have been itchy fingers, right? They said, will you pick the description of someone that was calling air for no. I heard the description. Remember? I already told myself, if someone sees me, if someone's looking at me right now, they should take this behavior. So maybe I'm calling it on myself, right? God plotted someone being situationally aware that they observed and they reported. I was m happy for that. I wasn't so happy the fact that five police officers showed up with weapons drawn, but one person who was on with a pen and a piece of paper wasn't too happy about that. The point is someone was reserving some of us report.


Try to get to know your neighbor. And I don't mean your next neighbor

All right, next one is just know your neighbor. And I don't mean your next neighbor. You can know them as much as they allow you to, but that's the student knowing it's all student. that's an employee knowing it's fellow employee. You know, the more you know them. Like if you don't know people anymore. No we don't but you can try to get to know them. Try to get, try to you know, talk to them. See what they're going to tell you. Because once they start telling you and start talking they don't tell you everything. Somebody cut me off from work today. I'm thinking about going back there and doing whatever. They will tell you everything and what's it fine. Are you going to go do whatever or when I got their license plate I'm m going to look it up. I know somebody can look at you know and are they detailing a plan to do something that's just the one who they thought cut them off, who probably didn't they put the signal and you didn't let them over. So that's your not your man. I don't know. My point is they will tell you, you know, if they're mad at the boss and the boss gets thrown out order. People start saying I want to do something. Now they already said but it's not people start hearing. Once you start saying something, they start going up. It now becomes 55 60. They keep talking about it goes up. They get up in the 75. They started creating a plan. They start saying what they're going to do and how they're going to do it. This is a matter of time. We hear it all the time. So if you know them or try to get to know them, you know, then they'll begin to tell you that the major that I told you the attacker and Fort Texas please. After 911 he applauded the act of 911 but the people who were working with him didn't say anything about that. By the time we learned that he had said that those people mentioned that he killed the one that people in Texas then they said oh well he applauded the attacks of 911. Well we need to know that what he said not years later after people are dead.

>> Tiffanie: Right?

>> Bart Womack: But they were right there in the room. They were listening but they didn't report. So the next one is listen. Don't just hear the college student. They were in a classroom, a criminal justice class and they were talking about, they were talking about guns. So the professors in there and everything talking about gun. All these people say well I have a gun and I have a gun. These are sophomores, you know, so 19 years old. Ish. And one guy says well I have a gun, have an AK47 and it's in a drop in my car. Now they're on campus, right? They must come to last or whatever. The class goes on, class is over. And one student goes back and he tells person in charge of like the. The door, the front door was in class. We talking about guns. And he said I have an AK47 and send a truck on my car. And it sounded a matter of fact not the professor. He didn't tell anybody. A 19 year old student told somebody. That student comes back to his, you know to the door and then he goes to his car. They get about 100ft from his car. He says that is why she's over. So to get to my car at 47 in Southampton. Now mistaken case. No ill will. Ill will was planned. He had Purchased the gun legally. Wentzville's Avenue campus. But he, the plan was the day prior he was going to take it to his friend dad's house who granted permission for the gun to be stored in his dad's house and lived in a rural area. Him and his buddy would go out to his dad's house and shoot the weapon out there, keep it locked out there and y' all didn't come back to campus. But they met link up the day prior for he had to keep it in his coat. His mistake was running his mouth. But he almost got away with it. Not that he gave no ill. What was clear. Only one person was listening. Not just here. All the rest of them heard it, but they want to listen. That puts the emphasis on listening. Not just here even going back to assign your doll. Then lastly we do the gut check. Like your gut's going to tell you everything you know, you hear all the time. Always thought that, you know, I always thought that something. Always thought that I knew something where you didn't do nothing about it. But what did you know? And in detail, what did you know? What did you think? What did you feel? Did you feel enough, it was detailed enough to report or could you put your gut feeling into words to be able to report? Sometimes there could have been a doubt about this. Strong gut feeling that you think it's this, this, this, this and this. But we always find out about the gut feeling after people are dead. Getting more. I knew not to get that. What's right now what are you going to do with that? Now it's no good. So where it seems like this won't solve every single Thing it definitely won't solve every single student, don't get me wrong. But it does, it does provide elective measures for insider threats that people can be the first line of defense, especially in those schools and in the workplaces.

>> Tiffanie: I like those because I mean they make great sense and they're easy to remember. And if you think about it, the verbiage is perfect. It listen, don't just hear it like listen to what people are actually saying because sometimes they're telling you a lot, just not in the.

>> Bart Womack: Right.


When you become extreme, everything's coming out of your mouth

Just like the Florida, I mean just like the Florida State shooter. I mean the thing now, I don't know exactly what he was saying, but when you become extreme, everything's coming out of your mouth. The point where they, they, they knew it and kicked him out of the group. So now you got two things going on with him, right? You have, you have this thing. I was allowed to be in this group to express everything that the group was supposed to be about. I took it to a different level and they kicked me out. So now, now you have this sense of not belonging anymore to the group that you was able to let it all out. Now you got to go away with going on. I'm an extremist. I'm m an extremist against these two things. Everyone out there who's not for me, you're against me because I'm extreme about this. And now I'm kicked out of this room. I don't even belong anymore. So I might as well, whatever. So in the blank.

>> Tiffanie: It'S not a good reason but you can understand why people may go to where they go.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah, that's why they go. It's the same thing as the person who's, who is when. You know, schools are very, very tricky because maybe all grew up. We all know how someone was bullied or how someone was shamed or whatever. You know, kids are relentless. You know, students are renounced by that because they can be 20 year old students but they're relentless when they were they relentless and if the person isn't strong enough to separate themselves from it, then they, at some point they just feel, I'm not going to take it anymore. You have that part of it going on and then you know, when we're young and women can talk and form strengthening and everything. You know, that's one of the first few things that were asked by people or even parents even what are you going to be? Where are you going to be when you grow up? When you get that and you get a Little bit more, you get a little bit more. My point is, you know, now that teenagers are not being asked where you want to be, it's like they are almost pushed in a corner to, what are you going to believe? What do you believe in? You don't stand for. You don't believe in something, and you stand for nothing. So they're being pushed to believe in something. They've been pushed to vote, and rightfully so, you know, by voting aids. But they're learning more about it. now they're at the form of an opinion. Good, bad, right or wrong, one side or the other, maybe in the middle, whatever. But my point is they are being pushed to believe in something now. So they have this belief. Does it even move to a point of an ideology, which I think is a little bit stronger than a belief? And then do you just stay there or you become radicalized about it? Can you just stay there or do you go and scream about it? So I'm, not surprised, by this. And again, it's what they believe and why. Why they believe it. Hell, the parents are shocked that their child believes in this so strong. Where they come from, we never talked about this. They don't know the parents, the parents that are in Missouri and the kids on Columbia University campus out there doing what they do based on their belief. But parents, they know, they believe that strongly about it. Like, where'd she come from? So, because we are. I have to use the word for asking them to believe in something. To believe in something, that they're going to find it and they're going to start believing it. But it's happening younger and younger.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, I agree.

>> Bart Womack: It's just a matter of are they going to get to the point of radicalization in exchanges. All you gotta do is get the right people in the right group and then it picks from one to another. There you go.

>> Tiffanie: Yep. Oil and fire. And then you got, boom. If somebody wanted to work with you, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

>> Bart Womack: M. They do a beef first. Yep. Now provide workshops, you know, due to public speaking on this, but also can follow up and do, you know, workshops as well. our. Our students, if there was a group to be able to affect the most, it's going to be them, their future. I think academic institutions are. They want to protect them. They're responsible for their safety. But I'm not sure what they're doing about their education. Some of them would think that just these type of things I talked about or saying that this person got shot and this person died or people killed. Well, they know that that's not super sensitive, if not more stupid angry. It comes out of my mouth. I'm not dramatizing it, not showing pictures of it. That is the end result. And they already know that. They're already doing drills about it. They're doing reactive drills. I'm teaching proactive strategies. They are in the environment. M that resource officer ain't going to get their. They have not gotten there. We never hear that the student was committing an effect, and they got shot right before they shot somebody first. Never. It might have been foil, but if it's foil, it's not foiled that the person was getting ready to take the gun envelope and that's when they stopped was foiled because they messed up their plan. And really that first line of defense did one of these things that I talked about and that's how it got foiled. The person got super sloppy or someone stepped up and said I heard this, I'm going to go tell. That's the only one. He said, that's how it gets foiled. There was a student, 14 years old, he told him, bud, hey, don't come to school on this day because I'm going to shoot up school. And the student wasn't told. And the government exchange students so that they'd be the guardians that he was banning with didn't even know he had ordered different parts of a gun in public gathering. That's. That's the one he's going to use for the attack. But his buddy.


After 911 we're not joking about this stuff anymore. There's no joking no more

Fuck. His buddy told him he thought he's telling his buddy in confidentiality, but his buddy reported. And then he said, oh well, while it's just joking, here's my thing about that type of joke. It's not a joke. Remember the days that you remember the days when we would say oh, that's McDonald's. So if you heard oh, that's the bomb, what did that mean? What did that mean?

>> Tiffanie: I mean, oh, this is great. This is the best.

>> Bart Womack: That's right. It was full. It'd be great. It's the best. Right. But then after 911 we couldn't say it no more. So you can't say it in the airport. You can still say it, but you can't stay in the airport. Right?

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Bart Womack: How many times, how many times have you heard someone say that's the bomb there?

>> Tiffanie: Not very. I told someone the other day they were the bomb dot com.

>> Bart Womack: Not. I get it. Yeah, but not, not As a great. You know, okay, now in the context of a grape. But you give them a point. You don't hear anymore. There's been replaced with that stove that. Something else that rats. Nobody say. But one thing it's not is the bomb. They just said you can't stay in the airport. They didn't say you need to stop staying there for the rest of your life. That's what we started doing. Stop staying for the rest of our lives. The reason why no one wants to screw around with that, because we say some places that are kind of bombing people, they hit the bomb, not it's cold. So we just don't say no more. They don't say in the Air Force, we don't say no more. My point is when someone says something like this young student did, we have to believe them. There's no more joking about this stuff anymore. If you said it, then we expected that. I don't care if we ever seen you with a gun or not. But we figured that you had the means to go get one, find one, buy one, borrow one, or whatever, do what you said.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. I mean, for sure you can't play around anymore these days because you just. You never know who's telling you the truth. But in their own way.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah. You report it and let those people that you reported to let them sort it out, then it's on their head. But if you don't report it, then we get a long way from you. But he said it. But I ain't believe he's always joking. There's no joking no more. As I said, we don't say the bond no more. There's none of that anymore. That was cool five years ago. 10, 15. No. But not anymore. It's 20, 25. You say you're going to do it, then we expect you to do it. You've been held accountable for your mouth saying it. I expect you to be bringing a.

>> Tiffanie: Gun tomorrow exactly as it should be. Instead of people just playing it off and acting like it wasn't said. Because it could happen.

>> Bart Womack: Yeah. That's why we need them to know that it could happen. That person not joke. We don't joke like that. So that's kind of the lesson that people need to. They need to take away and need to learn is we're not joking about this stuff anymore. We got to be proactive with this that day for the first line of sentence. Law enforcement get there eventually, but that's reactive. When bones are foreign. They're telling you what's happening long before they do it.

>> Tiffanie: Right. Right.

>> Bart Womack: Well, I say long. It might be the morning up. It might be the post on social media, you know, right before. But what did they put out there long before the post on social media? That was myth. If you're not leveraging any situational awareness strategies.

>> Tiffanie: Great. Absolutely. That is great advice. And I think people need to listen. Don't just hear. I'm gonna be saying that all the time now.

>> Bart Womack: There you go.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, Bob, I wanna thank you so much for being here. I think this was good information. I'm gonna make sure I put your links in the show notes for people to come find you and for your book.


I wanted people to know the story, but also wanted them to look for clues

>> Bart Womack: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I don't know. I forgot to. Where was all, why I got it from. I wanted people to know the story, but also wanted them. I didn't want them to be left like, we were like, like, how did this happen? Why did this happen? And more importantly, it was that there was something that stuck with me all this time. It always been, how do we not know? I told you why we didn't know. But still, like, we were never going to know that. But what was put out there, that we just didn't see.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Bart Womack: So he was good. You know, he was good. But it led me to come up with this strategy for people to look for things.