Threads of Resilience - Escape from the Narcissist’s Web | Martina Gruppo

Tiffanie welcomes guest Martina Gruppo to True Crime Connections

>> Tiffanie: Hello and welcome to True Crime Connections advocacy podcast. This is where I talk to real people about real shit. I am Tiffanie, your host, and if this is your first time here, I want to welcome you to our rewired and inspired community. If you are coming back, I am so happy that you're here. This week we're going to learn how we can walk tall and unafraid. Today with me is guest Martina Gruppo. She is the author. Hello, flower. And she is a narcissist survivor, so. Hi, Martina. Thank you so much for joining me today.

>> Martina Gruppo: Hi, Tiffanie. It's an, absolute pleasure all the way over here in Italy. Despite my accent, I am English, and, I am living in Italy, which might sound like a dream come true, but the reality is quite different when you're living here. yes, I'm delighted to be here. Sorry, don't. You must stop me if I talk too much.

>> Tiffanie: You are fine. Italy is actually on my bucket list.

>> Martina Gruppo: So really, as a place to visit, as a place to go on holiday, 100% recommend it. Just don't move here. I think anywhere that you go on holiday is fantastic, isn't it? Because you're just there and you take away all the best bits. it's hurt me a lot, so I think I've got a slightly more jaded view of it, and I think I'm ready to move. Maybe not back to England, but maybe a move to sort of where my roots are, which is Southern Ireland. So, yes, I think a lot cooler, a lot more rainy. But, yeah, I'm all right. I'm not scared of that.

>> Tiffanie: no, you shouldn't be. Adventure. That's what life is all about, finding yourself. And if you're not happy somewhere, you need to go find that happiness.

>> Martina Gruppo: Yeah, absolutely. And, actually, I'm a really firm believer in that. If it's not right, change it. Which is kind of ironic, because when you look at the whole subject of my book and everything, you'll be thinking, well, why didn't you move out of that? But I think that's where the whole thing about narcissism comes from. You don't realize that you can change it. You're so desperately trying to make something better that you don't realize that you should actually just walk away from it. And now I just threw myself right in there. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

>> Tiffanie: No, that's perfect. That is absolutely perfect.


Where did you meet your ex husband? I actually met him twice

Where did you meet your ex husband?

>> Martina Gruppo: This is the point where I feel really like an absolute idiot. I actually met him twice. The, first time was in my early twenties, and I think I set myself up for a huge fall there, because I decided that we spent a couple of years together. Hedonistic, fantastic early twenties, you know, every. You've got the world at your feet, basically. It's just the most incredible sensation, living in Rome, just living the high life. And there came a point for me when I wanted more, as in, I wanted. And we were in our mid twenties, I would say, and I just felt that I wanted, I wanted a little bit more stability. Well, I've always wanted stability, and I wanted kids and a future and, you know, all those kind of things. And they come because I was sensible enough to know that they come with. I don't know. You have to do, you know, you have to make your dreams happen, don't you? So I wasn't just going to land the job of my dreams, no matter how much I wished for it. What I needed to do was to go and study. So I wanted to go back to England. And, he didn't. And I think that's where I made my first big mistake, not leaving Italy. I think that was a very good thing to do and a very sensible option to go back to university at 26 years old and, you know, take that degree and everything else, but along with moving back to Italy, carried not just the baggage onto the plane, but all the baggage of that failed relationship on my shoulders. Because he said to me, oh, yes, you must go back to Italy. You must. Sorry, you must go back to England. You know, that's the right thing for you. I don't want to go back, but you need to do what makes you happy. Said in the most altruistic, selfless way. I just took it all on it. To me, that was me that had made a hugely selfish move and had left the best thing, you know, my soulmate, the one person who would have made me happy. So I carried that for quite a few years. Lots of things happened, which included, you know, various different jobs, another marriage, my first marriage, IVF, an attempt at IVF. But, my first husband walked out of that. So, you know, the whole infertility thing was really difficult for me to cope with during that time. And then the divorce from my first husband, and then out of nowhere, like a sparkly unicorn, my wonderful prince charming reappears on the horizon. And he sends me this message when I. Long story, I can't go into this now, but I was in Nicaragua because I was buying coffee a whole other sort of business. Yeah, I know. You should read the book. And I went and he. He contacted me and my legs gave way. There he was. You know, this. This is the person that I had been waiting for. The person that I knew. A person whose photographs and messages and drawings I had put into an envelope in my, you know, And buried somewhere in some old boxes or something. Too upset to even open it and look at, you know, this person that I personally felt responsible for having lost. I know, what an idiot. Anyway, he appears on the horizon, you know, on his sort of. He was scared of horses, so he wouldn't have been on a horse. He came along and,

>> Tiffanie: On his donkey.

>> Martina Gruppo: Yeah, on his hat. No, he shouldn't love what we should. But later, maybe what he did was he came along and made me believe in this fairy tale and. Well, he didn't make me believe in it. I believed in it. And then he embarked on the textbook list of behaviors which narcissists do. So he started out with the love bombing.

>> Tiffanie: Oh,

>> Martina Gruppo: My God. I can't believe it's you. You're amazing. Do you still do this? Do you still have that? I can't wait to see you. It's always been you. And for somebody who was quite vulnerable after the infertility, the divorce, I didn't really get on with my. Some members of my family, you know, there was some of this that just made me feel. Right, now it's my turn. Okay. Now I'm going to get the happy ever after that I've always dreamed about. It might not be accompanied by cute little kids running around, but I will have my love story. I will have the person that I'm supposed to be with. And, then he just began. Wow. I mean, then I think it started pretty quickly. Over an eleven year period, he started to tear me down. And, I'm not torn down easily. I've got. Been described as feisty and willful and probably quite annoying sometimes, but, you know, and I'm fairly determined. But he. Yeah, the destroying of somebody is really difficult and it's insidious because when it's done by somebody you love and, you know, somebody you've held up here, you can't. I think the reason why you don't walk away, as we were saying at the very beginning, the reason you don't change it is because that person is also telling you that it's all your fault. your menopausal, you're putting on weights, your hair's too curly, your hair's too straight. That t shirt isn't. I mean, just everything. And I know Tiffanie, probably. I know that this has been far more prevalent in America. At least the highlighting of it has come to the fore in America. And you use the term narcissistic abuse and narcissism. I didn't know anything. I didn't even know, as far as I was concerned, that was somebody who looked in the water in a greek, you know, mythology thing, and, you know, and then he fell in and drowned. More fool him because he was vain. That was it. You know, to find out that there are, ah, there are dictionary definitions there.


Gaslighting is basically someone trying to make you feel crazy

There's a whole vocabulary that accompanies what these people do. I mean, you know, gaslighting. Wow, gaslighting, that's, you know, harshen it's basically somebody trying to make you feel crazy.

>> Tiffanie: And yes, I was told constantly I was crazy. And you know what? I was right about everything that I was crazy about.

>> Martina Gruppo: So it's also really difficult because they've already set the groundwork. If he had come in at the very beginning and, had gone through the love bombing stage and then the mirroring and the copying and the everything you like, I like, everything you do, I love, you know, that kind of thing. We fought for it, don't we? Because you're just like, this is finally the man for me. He finally gets me. But if they had. If they then went straight onto the gaslighting stage, we would be, whoa, no, hang on a second. You know, you're not doing that to me. And, what they do is something which is. It's the second stage. God, I always forget the name of this. And it's really annoying. The. It's. It's the tearing down of you. It's the negging. It's making you feel bad about yourself and, making you doubt, you know, things like the nicest t shirt on you or the best, you know, thing that you want to wear or what you want to eat or you're cooking or something. What they're doing is they're starting to make that all crumble. And, by crumbling the part of you that is really strong and believes in what you're doing, they're very cleverly laying a manipulative foundation for when they come on in and gaslight you. And then, you know, that's when. That's, when it's really like, yeah, 10. I've got you. There's nothing I can do because I'm actually making you doubt your own reality.

>> Tiffanie: God. Yeah, they're very strategic. Very. Because they know they, ah, have to get you where they want you.

>> Martina Gruppo: I'm going to interrupt you. Strategic makes them sound clever. I don't think they're clever at all. I think that they have a textbook way of treating people and they never deviate from that. And, when they become transparent, when you can actually see what they're doing, then you can start laughing at them. Then you can re, I mean, you know, I was blown away by some of the stuff that he just said in front of me before I even knew about all of this. You know, the term pathological liar was created obviously for these type of people. But you think pathological lying pathologically? No, nobody does that. Holy crap. Did they do it? I mean, to your face? Absolutely. To, I mean, I actually, he's such an asshole. But, you know, there was, when I think about it, there was one, there was one time when I was kind of testing him because I knew I was leaving. I knew it was, you know, it was just a question of time before I'd leave. And he was earning a pittance because in eleven years, I think he worked maybe one total. That's how much he manipulated me. And, I worked about three or four jobs just to maintain us, to keep us going. I paid for everything. I started going through my savings. Yeah, it was, it was dreadful. So he got this job, which he told everybody that he had a part ownership in this booty bed and breakfast in Rome. Yeah. No, he didn't. He was cleaning the rooms. I've, got nothing against anybody that cleans rooms. It's absolutely 100% okay, but not when you're telling everybody else something entirely different. And he came back one weekend because he used to leave me on my own for like five, six days of the week because he was so busy. Anyway, he came in and he said, oh, should we go out for lunch? And I said, yeah, yeah, let's go out for lunch. And I looked at him and I said, are you paying? And he actually did that gesture, oh, no, I've left all my money. And I just went, oh, well, you won't be going out for lunch then, will we?

>> Tiffanie: Good for you.

>> Martina Gruppo: Yeah, I did a lot of things anyway, so that's, that was, see, I've gone off on a tangent. I warned you about this.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, it's fine. Because that is financial abuse and that is part of it. And I totally understand because when I went through my abusive relationships, there also were not all these words. I had no idea. I just thought wow. Like, what is wrong with me? Not see through this shit? And then all of a sudden, all of these terms came out, and it was like an aha moment. And you're like, holy shit.

>> Martina Gruppo: There's a name for it I will never forget. Before I left, it was a friend of mine who said to me and that people who've been through this are really quiet because we feel ashamed, okay? We feel ashamed that we've allowed this to happen. And, she hadn't come out and told me before, but she said, I saw you at Christmas. And I saw, you know, I was like a shell of myself. I wasn't smiling. I was scared. And it was. It was. It was horrible. And she said to me, I need you to look up. I don't know if he is one, because that's what we always say to other people, isn't it? Like, I'm not sure if he is or I'm not sure if that's the way they're behaving, but just check it out and see if any of this lines up. And she started mentioning some of the traits, and I was like, yeah, yeah. I said, okay, what I'll do is I'll go away and I'll read about it. And I found a paper by a psychologist, proper scientific paper, and, I'll never forget.


Even after I left him, I didn't believe he was a narcissist

I just sat and read it on my phone and shouted through the phone down. and I was. And I was just like, this is his biography, you know, this is a malignant narcissist. This is what he is. I don't need to go and have him diagnosed. He has exhibited all of this behavior up until that. Yeah, up until now. But the problem that we, as the people who are in this relationship have is that, what we go through is a form of trauma bonding. And even after I left him, I didn't believe that. I, you know, and I hadn't had any proof. I suspected that he was having lots of affairs or he had somebody else. It was only when I started writing about it that then I started to go back and I realized it had been going on for years. You know, just even on wedding day. I'm pretty sure he. Yeah, he disappeared for 4 hours. I mean, that's the kind of treasure I married.

>> Tiffanie: he was cleaning rooms. Okay.

>> Martina Gruppo: I know. I was incredibly lucky, you know, that he got towards the end of the relationship, and, you know, and I didn't care anymore. I was. I mean, I did care. Of course you care, because you're. You're line sided by how awful they are. You know, you really are just thrown by the whole thing. And I was a shell of myself. It's taken me a good couple of years to come back up.


What a narcissist feeds off is your emotion, okay?

I must tell you about something you mustn't let me. Don't let me forget that. I want to tell you about my sub sack thing because there is a video and you can see exactly what I look like when I was with him towards the end. And, what I look like now. And it's, wow. It's like I've written an article about it and I've actually written the sentence. It's like Benjamin Button. I've quite come backwards. I mean, that just looks like an old woman in that thing, you know, all powered now. I forgot what I was going to say. That's really annoying. towards the end, I remember him sitting there exactly from what you just said. And I just said, you know, because, oh, that's another really important thing. Gray rocking. Okay? You'll have heard the term grey rocking. Have you ever heard of it?

>> Tiffanie: I am not familiar with that one.

>> Martina Gruppo: Wow. Okay, so gray rocking, probably the opposite. What a narcissist feeds off is your emotion, okay? So that then enables them to go around saying to everybody that you're a hysterical, crazy, uncontrollable, wild, you know, stupid woman who's accusing them of all of this. Because remember, they remain as the victim, okay? They are always the victim.

>> Tiffanie: Always.

>> Martina Gruppo: Yeah. So when you start yelling and shouting and going, what bloody hell is going on here? Or why are you doing this? Or all of that, then they just sort of stand back and they're like, oh, look, here she is again, Miss Nutcase. So at that point you're feeding them. In m fact, there's a great meme which is called showing, a narcissist any emotion is like bleeding next to a shark. Yeah, I know, I love that.

>> Tiffanie: But I love that too. Absolutely.

>> Martina Gruppo: Gray rocking is the opposite. If you shut down and give them nothing and treat them as though they are, they have nothing for you and you are nothing. Do you know what I mean? You become as insignificant as they are. Insignificant as a grey rock. So you give them nothing, no emotion whatsoever. So he came back and I said, well, I'm filing for separation. This is how it's going to work. And he said, oh, his favourite one was, well, you always do what you want to do. Invariably. If only I'd always done what I wanted to do, I'd have left a long, long time before. But, the way that I was, it was almost as if I had just stopped feeling. So I didn't show him any emotion, and I said, no, I understand that. But please tell me. Tell me what it is that you think that you've done to save this marriage. Anything. Just one thing. What have you done to save this marriage? And, his answer was, I got a job. I'm so grateful. You got a job that puts you in the same city as your girlfriend and six days of the week away from me. I didn't say any of that to him. It doesn't matter, you know, none of that matters. But that's how little they have. And that's what I mean. They're not the cleverest people by any stretch of the imagination. They're certainly the most manipulative. But you can leave. You can get out. There is a way out to be a better and a stronger person. And if they preyed on you in the first place, I don't want to say that they will pay you a compliment, but nine times out of ten, a narcissist will go from somebody that he can steal from, physically, mentally, emotionally. It means that you are the strong one. You were the one with everything, and they're the ones that want everything that you've got until you disappear.

>> Tiffanie: That took me a long time to figure out, because I always thought, like, they could tell that obviously, I must have had low self esteem or, you know, because I always say you could be in a crowded room and they could pick you out. But it took me a while to realize it's because they saw that they had something to gain, a by you. There's a purpose for you. It's whatever they're going to get out of it.

>> Martina Gruppo: It's what they need, you see, because on their own, they don't sparkle. You are sparkling. And they're magpies. Well, nasty versions of magpies. And they want whatever you have. What is it in? Is there a Harry Potter book where they talk about dementors? Have you ever read any of the Harry Potter books?

>> Tiffanie: I haven't read them, but I watched the movies, and I love the rides. At, universal.

>> Martina Gruppo: Well, they have dementors. Okay? So there's a creature. They suck. Your energy is what a narcissist is.


People will label everybody as a narcissist because the word resonates

And there's something else. Whereas in England, I think people, and in Europe, less so, because the word, you know, resonates. But in England, I think people are getting a little bit fed up with the idea of, oh, narcissists is just another label for bad behavior. You try and say to somebody, I went through an abusive relationship where he used coercive control, and suddenly people are like, shit, that's bad. It's the same thing.

>> Tiffanie: The problem is that people will label everybody as a narcissist. Yes.

>> Martina Gruppo: And are doing.

>> Tiffanie: Yes. I mean, it could be some guy cut line or something and some. Oh, they're a narcissist. Like, not everybody is a narcissist.

>> Martina Gruppo: Exactly. And not everybody who lies is. And they're not gaslighting you if they lie. Oh, he lied to me. I'm. No, I'm being gaslit. No, you're not. No, you are not. Because by the time anybody can get around to gaslighting you, you are already a shadow of your former self. I'm older now, okay? So I'm learning not to go. No, that's, not true. I've had an awful lot of people try to tell me, you know, what it is like. But the people who don't try and tell me what it's like are the ones that have lived through a proper relationship like this. And, when I say proper, I mean a properly abusive. Not a proper relationship. It wasn't a proper relationship at all, but a properly abusive relationship when. When you really are brought to your knees and almost destroyed. Because, I mean, I know we're laughing and joking about all of this, and I'm out. But there are people out there who are putting up with this and thinking that this kind of behavior is normal, because I did. You know, people would say to me, well, you know, he didn't. He didn't do this or he didn't do that. And I think, yeah, okay, so he can be a bit of an asshole, but he's my asshole. But it wasn't. And, do you know what that made me? His a one best wing man. He could get away with anything because he knew that I would be there defending him.

>> Tiffanie: Right. So from the first time you were with him to the second time, did he not have those behaviors the first time around? Or was it that maybe he felt he had a deeper grip on you and then could start showing more?

>> Martina Gruppo: I think the first time around, he didn't work at all. But because we were so young, you know, we were in our mid twenties, and you're following this sort of lifestyle where I was working in a bar, I was also a babysitter. I was doing all sorts of things in Italy, in Rome, you know, piecemeal work, wherever I could find it, that it all felt very much like everybody was trying to get by that way. So I think any red flags or warning signs or anything like that, they didn't show up as much because everybody's young and good looking and lovely and it's all about the clothes and the parties and the alcohol and the rest and all of that. And, you don't stop and think until you stop and think. And then you say, I actually need better in my life than this. And that's when you, you go away to find a better life. And that's when he didn't come with me. The warning signs were there, very much from the beginning of the second time I was with him. But I brushed them off because this was my second chance at, happiness. So there was no way that I was going to allow a little thing like him not having employment, him not having his own house, him not, you know, having any kind of a career or something, because he was very plausible when he told me about all the things he had tried to do. And he did work for ten years, allegedly. You see, now, I don't know any of that because I just, you know, as far as I was concerned, it was his ex girlfriend who supported him for ten years, just as I did. And he, he did some, some things, so he did some part of that work. But I think she carried him along the same way I was about to carry him along for eleven years.

>> Tiffanie: I can see that. One of mine didn't work for like a year. And I was a single mom raising my, my son, and on the weekends he would be like, I haven't left the house all week. Like, we need to go do something. And I'm like, I barely had two nickels to rub together and it's like, but I've been sitting in this house all week, okay, go get a damn job, Tiffanie.

>> Martina Gruppo: Oh, my God, if you do not read my book because you are literally, there is a chapter in there that I was the same working in a school all of week. And he came back and said, aren't we going to do something this weekend? And I was doing private lessons as well. Everything to try and pay private tuition, lessons, everything to pay for it. End of the Friday night when I was exhausted. Well, what we doing this weekend? thank you. Yes, exactly the same.

>> Tiffanie: no, you're good. I was pawning my jewellery so I could have the extra money to keep him happy so we could go bowling or we could do something stupid to get him out of the house because.

>> Martina Gruppo: You had to please him. Because if you didn't please him. Then he would react like a hysterical toddler.

>> Tiffanie: I was gonna say toddler. Yes, absolutely.


You say it takes about seven times to leave someone before you finally decide

>> Martina Gruppo: Do you know what? We're laughing at this because we've got through it, but it's just. It's so sickening, isn't it? Just to hear that you and I've met so many people who have gone through the same thing, people who've contacted me to say, this is horrendous, you know, I can literally see my whole life developing as yours did I have to leave him? And you just want to reach out and say, it's not you, it's just not you, it's them.

>> Tiffanie: Right? You have to know when you finally had enough. And, you know, they say it takes about seven times to finally leave somebody. And I gotta say, I probably stuck out all those seven times, and I kept going back because it was comfortable, it was familiar. He was my dream guy. In my eyes, I thought he was like God's gift, you know, he looked like he belonged on the corner of G or on the COVID of GQ. So I was like, oh, my God, and he wants me. It was more of a pride thing, I think, as well. Like, look at what I got. What I realize was he.

>> Martina Gruppo: Did he come across. Was he like a sort of, you know, did people generally like him?

>> Tiffanie: It's funny you should ask that. Men did not. He did not have very men, like, many. Let's try that again. He did not have very many male friends. He had all female friends.

>> Martina Gruppo: Right?

>> Tiffanie: So. And I could see him using them on the side. Like, he would get whatever he could get out of them, right. And that kind of got the wheels kind of turning in my head a little bit.

>> Martina Gruppo: So he had quite a lot because my ex husband had a lot of transient friends, so he would meet somebody. Oh, my God, they were the best thing since sliced bread. They're so love. And then weeks later, there would be no interest. Oh, no, I don't see them anymore. Oh, no. They treated me this way because. No, I got, you know, I don't need to see them. And it was really strange because I just thought, wow, you know, you were all over that person. Well, there he was, probably literally all over that person.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, well, vine was a bartender, so he met all kinds of people at work. And then he told me he didn't want me in bars. But that's where you work. So I was very confused. I can't be in a bar, but you can work in one. Like, okay, that makes sense.

>> Martina Gruppo: But it is very much it is one rule for one and another rule for another, and also that the other thing to look out for if you're in a relationship like this, which I really. I feel so bad for you, is the projection. I was accused of being money obsessed, controlling, work obsessed. I, had no friends. I didn't ever want to go out. I wanted to go out, you know, whatever suited him, whichever rhetoric suited him at the time, he would accuse me of that. Are you having an affair? When he clearly was, you know, you're so money obsessed. He used to say, all you want to do is just work, work all the time. You never want to go out anywhere. But if I suggested going out anywhere, he'd say, oh, no, I'm much happier staying at home. It was. It was the most. It was like walking. The last few years were like walking in a hall of mirrors. You didn't know which way to turn. You didn't know what you were supposed to say. Do wear anything. It was just. Yeah, it was unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. I still can't believe I was in it. I still can't believe, you know, even people who know me really well, different. It's really difficult to explain to somebody who's in a normal relationship, because they just say, and, I understand why they ask it. Why didn't you just leave? I don't know.

>> Tiffanie: Not that easy. It's just not a part of you, honestly, is in love with this person. You're in love with the idea of the person you want them to be, be.

>> Martina Gruppo: But you're also. You are, convinced that it is because it's your fault that you can. If you just do this, things will go back to the way they were at the very beginning. If I just make a better effort, if I just cook him this, if I just buy him that, then things are going to go back to the way they were. It's a form of brainwashing, and it takes a long time. Remove yourself from that mentality. When I left him and I, you know, I came to live here, and this place was a building site, and I remember, you know, doing things, I would have his. It was like a channel in my head, like a radio channel. No, you shouldn't do that. No, you don't want to do that. No, you need to double check this. And you'd have to almost like, shit. No. Quick, turn the channel. Put some music on. Dance. Do anything. You know, just get rid of that damn voice, because it's really annoying. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, yeah. When I sit back and think about my instances.


You dated two narcissists who constantly checked their phones

Because I've dated two complete assholes.

>> Martina Gruppo: Oh, I've dated loads of assholes. But two narcissists?

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. I just. I'm like, how many times were you gonna fall for the same shit? And, you know, I would look through his phone here and there. Like, he kept his phone with him all the time. All the time. So if he went to the bathroom when we were out, he took his phone. So anytime he left it on the table, I was always, like, poking at it, because obviously, you know, there's a code on it, but just to see the notifications. And every time, I always find something. Always. And then when you ask them about it, it's now your fault because you went looking for something. So I used to get told, well, if you're going to look for something, you're going to find it. What the fuck does that mean?

>> Martina Gruppo: but in actual fact, that's just them putting it straight back onto you. You see, I wasn't as savvy as you were because I trusted him 100%. If there was one thing I didn't think he was doing, it was sleeping with other people. God could tell you some horror stories. Honestly, I won't. It's not right for radio, but, you know, even with his phone beeping all the time. Beeping left, right, and center during the evening, during. At night. And I would say, why is your phone keep coming off? And then he'd be angry with me because I'd woken him up because they were messaging him. And it was just so bizarre that I never grabbed hold of his phone and just went through it and said, right, okay, we're done. I don't know what it is that makes you that stops you from just checking. He was very good. I guess it was because I didn't want to believe it.

>> Tiffanie: I suppose you don't want the answers.

>> Martina Gruppo: No, I suppose it's that. But they do, and they all do, and they're all doing it, you know?

>> Tiffanie: Oh, for sure. Like, that became my life. You don't even understand. Like, now the phone became, like an upstairs obsession, because every time I checked it, I did find something, and it's like, I couldn't live like that anymore. I'm like, what kind of life is this? So why all you are?

>> Martina Gruppo: So why didn't you leave when you saw? Because I.


You left your first husband because he showed narcissistic tendencies

Right, okay, so now I'm going to interview you because I told you why I. Or how I got out. Now you had to. I don't think my first husband was a narcissist. I think he showed narcissistic tendencies. I don't think he was actually one, but I think my. But I still think he was a dickhead. But I want to know, how did you get out of the first one? And, the second one, how do you stop yourself from falling into a third one?

>> Tiffanie: So the first one was actually my son's father and that he's like, maybe on the cusp of a narcissist and maybe a psychopath. So when, obviously, I got pregnant, I couldn't drink, I couldn't hang out anymore. And, when that happened, you really see the full picture. And he went out every night, every night of my pregnancy, except for two nights. And thank God one of them was the night I went in the labor. So I never knew what was going to come home. And that was frightening to me because you just never knew. He was very mean. He was a mean, mean, mean drunk. And so I wouldn't sleep, I'd be a nervous wreck. And I actually passed that on to my son, which, you know, he has anxiety issues now. And back then, I didn't even take that into accountability. That everything that I was feeling, he was feeling. And that was a hard pill for me to swallow.

>> Martina Gruppo: Enough.

>> Tiffanie: enough is enough. And so I left him when my son was a month old. I stayed away ever since because clearly you have issues.

>> Martina Gruppo: That's an incredibly brave thing to do.

>> Tiffanie: The second one, he moved in with me after a month. Yeah, the red flag girl. Red flag.

>> Martina Gruppo: So you have the love bombing. You're the best thing that's ever happened to me. I'm going to take care of you both, okay?

>> Tiffanie: Right, right. And then I think he lost his job. I met him while he was bartending, so I had to hear that all through the relationship, too. Well, that's how you met me. That's how. You know what I mean? You can't get mad that I'm a bartender. That's how you met me.

>> Martina Gruppo: And it's like, my God, yes. That's. Turns it all round. It's all your fault, of course. God, they really are, ah, unimaginative.

>> Tiffanie: And I kept finding things. So one day I was at the bar with my mom and a bartender at a place he used to work came up to me and told me. So you go to bed about 1030 every night. And he's in here around 11:00 every time when he's in here, because he would leave when I would go to bed. And, because I worked in the morning like a normal person. And so you know, he was still on that night shift brain, and she's like, he's in here with girls all the time. All the time. Well, I got so pissed off, I went home. It was my house. I threw all his shit on my front lawn.

>> Martina Gruppo: How long had you been with him at that point?

>> Tiffanie: Probably about a year.

>> Martina Gruppo: So you got out quite quickly.

>> Tiffanie: Yes. I put everything that he owned on my front lawn. And then I took a picture of it and said, look who's having a yard sale. It's like, 01:00 a.m. i kept the picture, still have it, of, all of his shit right in front of my house. I said, you better come get it before other people start picking through it.

>> Martina Gruppo: What did he do?

>> Tiffanie: So after that, I tried to, like, get my door with a chair and all kinds of stuff so he couldn't get in because he still had his big screen tv and his dog. Those were the only two things I still had of his. And then I went to my mom's because I'm like, I'm running. I'm getting out of here. Well, when I returned the next day, I found out he broke into my house through the back door. And he got his tv, he got his dog, kind of, like, ransacked the house, took whatever of mine he thought that he deserved, and kind of went on and did his own stuff for a little while. Well, a part of me was still fascinated with this man. It was like a lust thing. I don't. I don't know what it was. I just. I felt like he was above me for some reason. And how lucky am I that he wanted me?

>> Martina Gruppo: Okay.

>> Tiffanie: Worst mentality to ever, ever be in. so that was a really hard thing for me to kind of digest because especially, like I was saying earlier, turned out I was. I was so much better than him. And he knew that. That's why he targeted me.

>> Martina Gruppo: Yes, but the second that you started to feel as though he was superior was the moment that he wasn't interested in you anymore because you'd served your purpose and he couldn't get anything else from you.

>> Tiffanie: Well, he.

>> Martina Gruppo: It's also. You did get him back. You took him back. Oh, Tiffanie, the only thing I would say is, okay, so you discovered quite earlier, on. And you ignored the red flags for me. I mean, I was going through. I also went through cancer when I was with him, so I had breast cancer. And, then the menopause, which apparently, according to him, doesn't exist. Did you know that?


You said you felt asexual next to your ex-husband

I just want you to know that the menopause apparently doesn't exist. It's a figment of our imaginations. But you know, you said that you felt that it was lust. Okay, well, he made me feel as though I was just like his mate, you know? I had no, I felt asexual next to him. But actually I wasn't too worried because he was so shit in bed that actually I wasn't missing m out on anything. And it is not true that Italians do it better. No, they don't. Okay, just gonna put that out there. He was the most selfish, self, obsessed crap kisser, you know, why, why was I with him for eleven years? What? Where? I don't know.

>> Tiffanie: Anyway, okay, well, I never lived with them again. I made sure you are never stepping foot in my house. You are never taking advantage of me ever again. Be like a year and a half in, I want to say that I did all that. And then we had a couple months apart and then they just start creeping back in. They leave like little breadcrumbs and they start getting back in your good graces. And remember when we used to do this? And remember when we did that? Look at all the fun we had. Look at all this. Like, I miss you. You are my soulmate. And I'm like, you don't treat your soulmate like this. Like, I would always say that. And like, even towards the end, every time I'd go back, I was so miserable because I knew that this is not where you should be. So. And he used to be like, you're so hot and cold. Because like a part of me wanted him, but another part of me was like, girl, what are you doing? You know?

>> Martina Gruppo: So, because, you know, don't you?

>> Tiffanie: Oh, I knew.

>> Martina Gruppo: I was trying to work it out and I was thinking to myself, I'd go for walks on the beach with his dog, who, by the way, he abandoned. So I took over, his dog that he'd wanted so much and was such a, ah, he was quite thankful he was a great Danehorn. And, took him and looked after him and I'd go for walks on the beach going, what is wrong? What is wrong? What is wrong? Until I realized, you know, I didn't realize that he was a narcissist, but I was just. The light bulb moment was he never invests in anything. He never invests whether it's houses or jobs or any. He's not all people. He does not invest in anything. He's just coasting. He's cruising through this verbiage.

>> Tiffanie: Yes, coasting yeah, that's why.

>> Martina Gruppo: I mean, I, I just, I'm really, really.


The other thing that I described in it is for a long term relationship

The other thing that I described in it is for a long, long time when you're in a long term relationship. And I wrote about this. You know the plastic wrapping you get at airports? you know those bag wraps where they wrap your bag in the plastic over and over and over again so that nobody can open them when you, when you travel. Have you ever seen those?

>> Tiffanie: I don't think we do that here.

>> Martina Gruppo: No, I've seen it in America. You do. You go. And they put them on a revolver and they've got this plastic thing and it just goes round and round, like cling film. You know, like the cling film used to cover dishes and things. And it goes round and round and round and round around until the whole of the thing is barely recognizable. Your suitcase is barely recognizable. I've never done it. It doesn't strike me as being particularly sustainable. But anyway, you're all ethical or dysplastic. That's how I felt. I felt like I had been completely bound up to the point that I wasn't allowed to say anything, that, anything I said was wrong, that anything I did was. And I could feel myself towards the end of it, pushing against this and just wanting to be heard. And it was. Yeah, I. Anyway, it's two and a half years now. I'm out.

>> Tiffanie: Yes, it's been a while for me, too. The scars are still there, though. Like, I was constantly told I was ugly, fat, gross. Nobody would want me that. All of his friends would say, why are you with her? Like, just very mean things. And so it took me a long time to work through all that.

>> Martina Gruppo: Monkeys, flying monkeys. Believe everything everybody says. So I am, in no particular order, a hysterical, drug addled, alcoholic, work obsessed, controlling lesbian who doesn't like sex and only wants to be on her own. I don't like sex. That's fine, you know, obviously. Or you can see just by looking at me how miserable I am.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, m in the end of the day, you got to look at it and be like, they did us a, favor. Because I was able to find my true identity and what I was willing to put up with, and that was not me.

>> Martina Gruppo: I think you're great, but I'm going to disagree with you.

>> Tiffanie: That's fair.

>> Martina Gruppo: I think that, despite them, our true selves reared their heads from something that we were being pushed into quicksand for a long, long time. And we fought back and went, actually, I'm not having this, not because of them, but in spite of them. And I really believe that the strength of the people that they pick is in there. And anybody listening to this, please know you do have the ability to get out, and it is better out there. Oh, my God. Tiffanie, you have to check my substack page. Seriously. I'm going to send you the link after this because it's. It's. The video makes me cry. M when I. When I see that video and it shows. M he's taking film of me when I. In the last year that we were together, when I bought this place. And I'm wandering around, you know, trying to be happy because the video is for my friends to show them. you know, look, I've bought this place, and it's going to be great. And everything else. It's a very. You know, it's a very basic video. And then there's the second one, which was taken in July of this year. And it's like somebody has changed them, even though they're both in color. It's like the second one is in color, and the first one's in black and white. And it's just. Yeah, I love it. I really do.

>> Tiffanie: But, yeah, I want to see for sure.

>> Martina Gruppo: I've loved this. This has been really, really great. And I am. I am so much better than I was to. I. It's a work in progress because, like you say. And, I often use this similarity, which is all metaphor, which is, if you cut a tree, it's got rings running all the way through it. You know, those rings that show how old it is. I think if you cut me in half, you'd see the trauma, abuse, the effects of it running all the way through it, through me. And I still react badly to certain things, you know, you would say, triggering if something can just. It doesn't happen often, and I'm learning to control it, but, oh, my God, when it does, I can be right back there and walking on eggshells again. And I, don't need to be overjoyed and happy and bouncing around and off the walls all of the time. But nothing makes me happier than having my own peace, you know, just not having somebody come along and wreck it, that's, I think, makes me the most happy. Just, you know. And even if it means just hanging out on my beanbag or in my hammock and listening to an audiobook for an hour, then I will do that. And I have the right to do that. Nobody can take. Yeah, well, and you know, it's good.


How is your son doing now? He has anxiety, which makes sense

And how is your son? Is your son okay now? Is he bathsheba?

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. I mean, he has anxiety, which makes sense. So he tries to work on that a little bit. But for the most part, he's good. He is old enough now to realize that his father's batshit crazy. So. Well, he saw the wrath of it because unfortunately, he hasn't completely changed. So when he would stop drinking for a while and then when he would drink, like, of course it'd be me and my son who's getting 70 text messages in a row of how you did this and you deserve this and merber and so, I mean, but other than that, he's doing great.

>> Martina Gruppo: I'm really delighted. I'm, really pleased to hear that. That, sounds so cool. Really?

>> Tiffanie: Yes.


Your book is available on Amazon. I am so happy for you

So your book, it's available on Amazon.

>> Martina Gruppo: It is. Look, I'm so proud of my book. Honestly, I really am. I want everybody, I want the whole world to read it. I didn't write it, earn a load of money and become a millionaire and just sit in a house somewhere. And I just want to carry on writing. But that book was written for anybody going through this. I love writing and I wrote that, and I'm so chuffed that people have said that they couldn't put it down. Some people have read it in a couple of days and, Yeah, I'm incredibly proud of it. And I will send you a couple of copies. I will.

>> Tiffanie: Perfect. I am so happy for you and I'm proud of you.

>> Martina Gruppo: Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm alright.


David Frum: Thank you so much for listening to this podcast

>> Tiffanie: Is there anything else you wanted to add?

>> Martina Gruppo: God, we'll have to do another one. I need a glass of wine. It's like, you know, come on, it's 08:25 here is way.

>> Tiffanie: Well, we can always do that. I'm always down for around two, so definitely.

>> Martina Gruppo: But see, let's see if anybody has got questions or anything like that through this. But I would love to see you again. It's been a real pleasure.

>> Tiffanie: Of course. Is there any special links that you want me to put in the show notes other than for the book? Like social media?

>> Martina Gruppo: Subscribe.

>> Tiffanie: Okay. I will make sure I put that in there.

>> Martina Gruppo: Thank you so much.

>> Tiffanie: Of course. And to the listeners, if you know anybody who could benefit from this episode, please share it with them. This is a safe space. That's what we do this for. And if you have any questions, comments you want to be on the show, I want to hear from you too, especially if any of these episodes resonate with you. Like, it's so important for us to know what we're doing is helping people, so we need to keep being rewired and inspired until next time.

>> Martina Gruppo: Thank you so much. Thank you.

>> Tiffanie: Of course. Thank you.