When an Abuser Makes You Prove You're Not Lying

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Can an innocent person fail a lie detector? And can a guilty person beat one? Today, a polygraph examiner who has conducted more than 20,000 tests reveals what these machines can really tell us. Hello, friends. Welcome,

Meet the Examiner

SPEAKER_01 0:27

welcome back. My name is Tiffany, your host of True Crime Connections. And joining me today is David Goldberg, a naturally recognized polygraph examiner with more than three decades of experience in criminal justice investigations and credibility assessment. That's a long time to be trying to figure out if people are lying. It is a very, very long time. So after 20,000 interviews, what have you noticed?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Like what has that revealed? It reveals that everyone has a story to tell. And everyone wants to be heard and listened. And not everyone is a liar. People do lie, but not everyone is a liar. And everyone needs their resolution to move forward in life. And after doing over 20,000, that's exactly what I've been doing for people, hearing them, listening, resolving their issues so that they can move on in life.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

What I love about it is you've been able to get cases dismissed. You've been able to get people who are wrongfully convicted, released. Like this is some powerful stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

It

Polygraph Myths and Misconceptions

SPEAKER_00 1:58

is, and there's a lot of misconception when it comes to polygraphs a lot. You hear a lot of naysayers, and I get it. I do, I get it. I get it's pseudoscience, it's BS, it doesn't work, it's the flip of a coin. But those individuals that you hear that from, it doesn't work, it's BS, those are the individuals that have gotten wrong results, or they have gone to the wrong unprofessional or inexperienced examiners who were telling the truth, and now they have a really bad taste in their mouth for polygraphs, and they're the ones that are out there bad mouthing it. You never, ever, and I'm telling you, ever hear anything negative from someone who has taken a polygraph test and have gotten their lives to move on, or had someone else tested and they've gotten the results that they need it so that they can move on in life. You've never heard anything negative in reference to a polygraph. Never.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

I feel like the only time you're gonna say anything bad is if it says you're lying, and if you are lying, what else are you gonna say? It's the test.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

But a lot of times when people come to me and I've told them that hey, you failed, I'm not so much yelling or telling them like you see on TV, you're a liar, you know. I don't say that. I'll say, hey, guess what? You didn't tell the full truth, so what is the full truth? And majority of the time they do tell you because they're there to give the truth and they want resolution for whoever brought them or if they came. So even though they've lied at the very end, a lot of times, even though they failed, ultimately they'll tell you the real truth at the end.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Right. Or minimizing it.

Manipulation and Beating the Test

SPEAKER_01 4:21

What have investigators learned about manipulation while using these tools?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

What investigators learn about manipulation? I think everyone in life tries to manipulate other people, and manipulation is about gaining something. So when people manipulate others, it's about power and control. So if they manipulate you, they are trying to gain something from you. Okay. And so when as an investigator, you're trying to ascertain information from, let's say, the suspect, okay, or the person that is not the suspect, but let's say a witness or whatever, or an alibi from them. And so if they're trying to manipulate the story or trying to put you in a wrong direction as an investigator, that's where the manipulation comes. But as an investigator, you better have all your facts, you better have all your information right there before you really interview so that you don't get manipulated. And that's a great question because I would say there are examiners that are not fully trained and prepared, and that's how people beat, because that's the question is oh, can that polygraphs can be beat? The polygraph itself can't be, but inexperienced examiners can be through manipulation and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I thought I

Medications and Nervousness

SPEAKER_01 5:57

heard before, like if you took like a Xanax or something that you could beat it just because it like cool, like not cools, but calms you down on the inside is that's bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

That is, and then and here's the reason why I say that everyone, everyone has some kind of issues going on with them medically. Someone, somewhere down the road, is gonna have some kind diabetes, heart issues, mental issues, whatever, and they're taking some kind of medication. And if they come and take a polygraph test, which I have, and they're on some kind of medication, that medication does not affect the results whatsoever. The medication helps you, and it may lower your anxiety because I have so many people who are ADHD, having mental, you know, behavioral issues, taking psychotropic medicines, whatever. It helps you, okay, with your issues, but it's not going to manipulate the results of the polygraph because I'm still interviewing you, I'm still asking you questions, it's not going to make you like a zombie or whatever. And so you're still gonna answer the questions the way you want to, whether you're gonna manipulate the answers by lying, deceiving, or whether you're gonna tell the truth. And then I'm just gonna test you and verify what you say is true. So taking a pill is not going to manipulate the results whatsoever at all.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

I always felt like shoot, I'd be innocent, but I'd be so nervous. It'd be like red flag, red flag, red flag, and I'd be telling the truth.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

And I'm glad you said that, Tiffany, because you're so right. People are always nervous, absolutely. And I say this all the time nerves, nervousness does not affect the results of polygraph tests. And an experienced examiner, their job is to reduce your anxiety when you go and you take a test. So, what people don't realize is when they go, they think as soon as they get there, they're gonna sit in that chair, they're gonna be hooked up and they're gonna be tested. If that was the case, every single person probably in this entire world would fail polygraph test as soon as you sit in that chair and get hooked up. Because I would be, even myself, I'd be anxious and nervous and go, what's going on? But that's not. There's several phases to a polygraph test when you go and you take one. One, it's you have to be interviewed. After you get interviewed and you get the uh questions, then are then reviewed with you, then you get hooked up, then you get tested, then the results are read. So by the time after I interview you, your anxiety level should be now lowered to where you feel comfortable enough and you feel, you know what, I'm not worried. I'm not gonna be worried that something surprising is gonna be thrown at me. He's already explained all the answers and questions that I should be knowing and be answering. I'm ready, and now here we go. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Gotcha. What

Interviewing Offenders

SPEAKER_01 9:01

have you learned about interviewing like offenders?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Sex offenders or any offender?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Any kind, any offender.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

I've learned again, I think every offender, whether it's a sexual offender, whether it's a perpetrator, whether it's a murderer, whatever, I think that they again they have a story to tell. Whether it's going to be fabricated or whether it's going to be true, they have something to tell. And what and when I interview them, I have to break everything that they say down step by step by step. And what I've learned from them is, and this is the truth, a truthful person can keep their story straight backwards, forwards, sideways, and tell that same story the same way over and over and over again. A liar and someone that's deceiving someone cannot. They're either going to exaggerate, take out, add, fabricate, and that story. And then when you ask them, well, tell me that again. Tell tell me it once again. So where were you again on the night of such and such, or where were you on the night of the shooting? And then they're gonna say, Oh, well, I was down the road. It's like that's funny. You just told me you were, you know, three blocks at your friend's house. Oh no, that's what I didn't mean that. I meant, and so they can't keep up with the same story, and so that's what I find when you talk to any kind of offender.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Gotcha. I

Why People Fail Questions

SPEAKER_01 10:39

always used to think it had to be like yes and no questions. Like, like you couldn't like actually like talk talk. It was just like yes or no.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

No, no, no. You you definitely have to elaborate more when you're talking to someone, you the interview process is absolutely all about talking, telling your story, giving details, giving everything. And then what happens is the test, when you tell when you get interviewed with the polygraph or any investigator, you're telling you got to tell the whole entire scenario and story based on what you're being asked. With the polygraph, it's the same way. Then what happens is the questions are then formulated based on what you tell me. So a perfect example with you, Tiffany, is hypothetically, I would ask you, why were you late last time for a podcast? And you would say, Oh, I misread my schedule and I marked it down wrong. Okay, and that's your answer that I just asked you. Now, when I formulate the question, I would say, Were you late for the scheduled podcast because you marked it down wrong in your calendar? You would say yes, and then I would read the charts. However, here's what's going to happen. Let's say that's not the full exact reason why you were late for the podcast. That's the truth. You misread the reason, but the other reason is you double booked the schedule. So you said, this guy's not so important, but this one is way more important. So I'm just gonna say, I misread you, but boy, this one is a lot better. So I'm gonna go with that one. So you fail your question because you didn't tell everything in reference to the interviewed question that was asked of you.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

I see. Very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

So I tell people, and I do say this a lot, people don't fail because they lie, they fail more because they withhold information.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Makes sense. Because, in a sense, then you're not telling the whole truth. But sometimes people don't think that certain things are probably relevant.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Right. And you know what I tell people? I say, when I interview you, when I ask you a question, I don't want you to justify what's relevant and what's not relevant. It's up to the examiner to make that decision. I'm going to justify what's really relevant, what's not. As long as you tell me A, B, C, D, and E of every question, then I'm going to verify, and then that's how you're going to pass your test. That makes sense. It's just like when you're in a relationship and your significant other, you tell your significant other, I'm going shopping. And they go, Okay. So you go shopping for three hours. Then when you come back and your significant other says, What'd you buy? And you go, I couldn't find anything. Then three days later, you come back and you got this real pretty blouse on, okay, and they go, Oh, well, where did you get that? And you go, it's been in my closet. You just don't pay any attention to what I spent. But you really spent $75 for that blouse. And if you would have told your spouse, they would have freaked out and said, You spent how much? And because you've been talking about finances, and that's why we keep things from our significant other. And so we don't tell them everything. Or you might have said, Oh, I bought some things here and there, but you don't tell them everything what you spent, and that's why. So when I ask questions, if I said, What did you buy when you went to the mall, or where did you go when you went to the mall, you would have told me I went to the food court, or went to JCPenney's, I went to blah, blah, blah, and I bought a blouse at this store, and this is how much I spent. Then when I formulate the questions, I would say at the mall, did you go to the food court? Did you go to JCPenney's? Did you go to, you know, this store is this store? And did you buy a sh blouse for $75? Then you're going to pass your question because you're not leaving anything out.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

When it comes to relationships,

Polygraphs in Toxic Relationships

SPEAKER_01 15:08

do you like do a lot with people who are in abusive relationships to make sure?

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Finish one today.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Oh, yeah, I do that a lot. And what happens is a lot of women, and I say mainly women, but a lot of women are in abusive relationships and they don't know how to get out of it and they're scared. Yet the individual that's there with is controlling. And so the controlled partner wants them to take a polygraph test because they have these suspicions or these narratives that they've built up in their head that, well, my partner's probably cheating, or my wife, or fiance or girlfriend, or whatever. So I want you to take a polygraph test. So when they're in the polygraph room with me, I get a lot of information from them and I find out that they're in an abusive relationship, they're being controlled, there's domestic violence, there's children involved. And then when I test them for whatever their significant other wants to find out, I find out that it's not happening. It's not true a lot of times. The significant other just has all these narratives that they've built up in their head because they're either cheating or they've gone through a lot of problems and they have a lot of insecurities. And so this test where it the significant other who brought their partner to get tested, they think it's going to help them, but it flips and it helps the person that's taking the test, and then they use it against them to get out of that toxic and abusive relationship.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

I hope they do get out of it. And usually it would be great if they flip the switch and been like, okay, now your turn. You keep saying that I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Sometimes they do, but then the the people that are in a controlled relationship, when that happens, like, you know, I took one, now it's your turn. They normally say, I'm not taking one. Why should I take one? It happens a lot.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

What patterns have you seen in abusive relationships over the 30 years?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

The patterns would be that, like I just said, that these both men and women, they build these narratives up in their head and they believe it. Meaning they would say, well, you know, the phone's not being picked up on time. So there must be a guy in in the house or having sex with my significant other, or vice versa. It must be a girl in there having sex with my boyfriend. Or they watch so much porn, and so they hear pornography in the background and or and they watch it, and then what happens is they see a tattoo that mimics the tattoo on their significant other, and they go, Oh my God, that's my significant other in this porn. She's making porn. And they just start freaking out. And so they start believing that you know these things. And so it gets abusive in that realm. And then they start interrogating what I find. They interrogate their partners to the point where their partners keep saying no, but it's not good enough. So they finally false confess. And then they give the false answers that they think that the partner wants to hear, but that's not good enough. Because then when you falsely confess, now the partner wants to hear more. And when you can't give that more because it's false, right? Like I said, if you can't give detail, it's fabricated. And when they can't give it, then the partner who's being abusive or controlling gets really rageful and upset and then doesn't believe you at all. And then the person that's falsely confessed now has to say, it's not true. I I made it up because that's what I that's what you wanted to hear. And so now the person that was told now goes, Well, I don't know what to believe. Are you did did it happen or did it not happen? And so now they come to me, and now I've got to clarify, it didn't happen, or it did happen, or you guys are really messed up, and you know, it's real toxic. And there's children involved, and the children get see this, and it it can be really bad.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

So you do tell them like you guys need to end this. Not in those words.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

I don't say that. I don't give any kind of marital or advice like that. But but I do say, based on my experience and based on what I've seen over the years, I'll say you guys are very, very toxic to each other, and it's very detrimental, especially when they say, and they they admit to things. They'll say, Yeah, the kids have seen this, the kids have seen me hit my significant other or my significant other has seen me throw something at them or whatever. Or I'll say, that's not healthy for the children, it's not healthy for you. Something needs to change, or I'll say you might want to consider counseling if you're gonna stay together. And if not, you make your own decisions as two grown, you know, adults. But if this continues, it's not gonna be very well for both of you or the children. So that's what I tell them. I don't say, hey, as soon as you leave my office, you need to like split and get into separate cars and go your own way. I would never do that because I'm not a marriage counselor, I'm not a lawyer, but I have helped many, many people go that route, and I've gotten many good reviews saying, oh my God, your information and advice you've given me have been spot on.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

That's good. What advice do you give someone who feels trapped, but they're not exactly sure if they're being abused?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Well, being trapped and being abused is two different things. If you feel like you're in a relationship or in a position somewhere, it doesn't even have to be in a relationship, but you feel like you can't get out. I ask the right questions as to why they feel that way. Sometimes they feel trapped themselves because they've caused it themselves. And it could be because of either mental issues themselves, low self-esteem, insecurities on their own part. And then on the other part, they could absolutely be trapped because they are controlled. They're not able to have friends, they're not able to make phone calls, they're being isolated from family. So, yeah, I I ascertain all this information and I gather it, and then I tell them again, this is not healthy. And this is what people don't normally live like this, and you have to make your own decisions. But ultimately, when people have a lot of insecurities, low self-esteem of themselves, they feel like they have to attach themselves to someone. And what happens is it doesn't matter how many polygraphs you take, it doesn't matter how many individuals you see that will give them that kind of good information. Sometimes it doesn't matter how much nudge or push you give them, they will still stay in that toxic and trapped position because they're just fearful of change and they don't know what's going to happen if they make that change. So they still stay in that same position.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Right. So unfortunate. But some people, yeah, they just can't see a way out. Now, when like children are involved, are you pretty much classified as like a mandated reporter or I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

The only time I would ever say, the only time I would say that if I felt that these kids were going to be murdered, seriously raped, or whatever, I would have to break that at that point and then report it. But if they tell me that they're in a toxic relationship, the kids are seeing, fighting, and arguing, no, I can't just break that confidentiality and call. But if someone comes to me and says, hey, I I've taken a polygraph test because the other party says I think they're abusing my children physically or sexually, and then I find out that happened, that information's passed on to the other parent, and nine out of ten times the other parent runs to CPS or to the police, and then my report that I give that's generated, which is very detailed, it usually goes to law enforcement or to CPS. So it gets out there some way. That's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

You had said that

TV Drama vs Real Testing

SPEAKER_01 24:06

TV portrayal of polygraph testing is a true misjustice to what reality is. Why do you say that?

SPEAKER_00 24:17

It really is, and I'll tell you why. I've done these TV shows, I've been hired for them, but it's all about ratings and not for the people's real, true resolution and recovery for themselves. And the TV, they want to dramatize everything. They make and it's all scripted. They pump these individuals up. They want you to scream on stage, they want you to yell, they want you to fight. That doesn't happen in my office, okay? You may still come here very upset, which I do. I see a lot of tears, both from men and women and children. I see that. That's emotions, that's raw. But I'm not going to say, hey, after this test, I want you to go, after I give you the results, I want you to go and take a chair and break it over their back. Or I want you to fight and beat each other's ass. I don't tell them that, but the TV shows do, because that's drama. People love drama. People love to see other people's drama. And that's one thing. The other thing is, is when it's on TV, they don't formulate questions properly. They don't give the test according to the American Polygraph Association laws and rules. And a lot of times they set these participants up, is what I call them, or it they set them up for total failure because that's what they want. They want them to fail, they want them to be miserable, they want them to be yelling at each other and saying, That's I didn't fail. And this is they want all that drama, and they also get paid. I don't pay my individuals to come here and scream and rant and rave, and that's not what I do. That's that that's where the big difference is. And it's also ratings pays the hosts, ratings pays the producers, and after they leave, this TV show doesn't care. They don't care if you the the participants kill themselves or they get divorced, or uh that's different with me. I always check on my clients, I always check to see how they're doing. They also respond back to me, tell me how their light's going after the polygraphs. It's a lot different.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

You're right. It's more about ratings and not the results, and that should be the important thing. I mean, pretty much what you were just like explaining is like Jerry Springer or Maury back in our day.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Yeah, those were a hot mess.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Right. And they and people love watching other people's issues because they know that their lives, and I always say this people look at Facebook and they get sad and they get depressed because they see people, oh my God, on vacation, or oh my god, their life looks so great. It's all facade, okay? I can promise you, I promise you, that no one puts their troubles on Facebook. No one, okay? Hardly ever. You're not going to see someone say, Oh, I just got divorced, or oh my God, they repossessed my car, or I lost my job, or no one puts that stuff out there on Facebook. That's sad, depressing, and woe's me stuff. They always put, oh my God, it's my birthday and no anniversary and all that stuff. But I can promise you, half the people that put stuff on Facebook, they're going through such serious trauma and drama that they hide that, you know? And so I see it and I hear it because half half the infidelity stuff starts on Facebook. That they find a girl on Facebook, they hit them up on Facebook, and then they cheat. And then so Facebook, you know, whatever. They find these girls on and women on Facebook, and then lo and behold, the infidelity begins. So I'm telling you, you'd be surprised what people lie about in reference to how great their lives are, but it it's a total crap show.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Oh, I I've said that in many of my episodes that you cannot go by that. I mean, how many people? I don't know how many people I've seen, but they'd be like TikTok stars talking about their perfect family, and the next thing you know, that they're in prison. So it's like right.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Right. I know professionals that you know post great things on Facebook and their lives are in shambles. Even people in my profession, they post how great their lives are, and they're just their lives are in the toilet. So I know that for a fact.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

So if somebody wanted to hire

Hiring Help and Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 29:11

you, what's the process?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Well, if someone wants to hire me, they find me either on my website at www.executiveprotectiongrp.com, or they give me a call at 757-495-1301. They call me. They don't talk to anyone else, and I answer all my phones and I talk to them and I help them. And if they don't hire me, that's okay. Because I'm not a salesman. And if they need help in another state or they need help somewhere else, I will do whatever it takes to help these individuals find a professional examiner because there's a lot of them out there that find the wrong one. And if they don't hire me, I find someone that will help them that I recommend. And it that's what I do. And that's how they can reach out to me if they have any issues. And I will tell say this to you to the listeners of your podcast is this there's not one single issue that someone's going through that cannot be resolved on a polygraph test. Not one. From anything from, we've already talked about infidelity, but from family matters, okay? You're being accused of stealing something from grandma because grandma passed away, you know, school, school issues with your kids, you know, that you're they're getting bullied or cheating, or you're in college and you're being accused of plagiarism, or whatever, sexual harassment at work, or any harassment at an employment, or you've been fired wrongly. I'm telling you, anything that you're going through, it can be resolved through a polygraph from a professional, and you can be elevated and move on in life.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Absolutely. Do you travel or is you stay in your state?

SPEAKER_00 31:03

No, I travel. I travel all over and I can. So it depends on what states, it depends on who calls me and where they need me and where they want. And it depends if they want to come to Virginia Beach where I'm located, or if they want to, if they want me to come to them.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Gotcha. Awesome. I'm gonna make sure that I put all that also in the show notes, your phone number, the website, all that, so it's easy in case anybody is interested. And is there anything else that you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Only that I am really passionate about helping people, and that there's a difference between what you see on TV, what you see in the movies, what you see on the TV tabloids about how polygraphs are administered. My testing is a lot different. It doesn't, it's not like that. And when you find a professional examiner, okay, their job is to ensure that a truthful person passes the exam. That is what their job is all about. Because a truthful person, that's like you just said, I'm nervous, I would be worried about failing, and oh my God. That's what a truthful person feels all the time. What happens if I get if that examiner messes my life up and gets the wrong results? That's what a truthful person always feels. A liar doesn't feel that way. You know what a liar feels? Liar feels, I hope I don't get caught. I hope he doesn't catch me. Okay? He's nervous or she's nervous, I hope I don't get caught. But a truthful person is really more nervous than ever. And so it's up to the professional examiner to ease that burden on that truthful person. And if you find an expert examiner like myself, but if you find one, then you have no nothing to fear about taking a polygraph test because that professional examiner is gonna lower your anxiety, make you feel comfortable, and it's going to resolve your issues, and your head's gonna be held up, all those burdens are gonna be lowered, and you're gonna walk out of there feeling like, wow, this is what I should have done a long time ago, and I feel just excellent.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Feel relieved. It's more therapeutic than most people really understand.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Well, it sets your truth, you know, like it gives you clarity and it also proves that you're not a liar if you're not. Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

And it's a great tool to be used for a lot of things, from crimes to outfalse allegations when a parent falsely accuses another parent of sexual abuse or physical abuse, or you're in a heated custody battle or divorce or whatever. You know, it's a great way to have leverage over the other party that's only making false allegations or rumors, where after you take a polygraph test, you're now going to have a physical, tangible report that proves you've told the truth where the other party is not going to have anything.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Aren't they dismissible in court, though, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

No, that's another false thing that's out there all the time. There are many courts that it's not admissible, but there are courts that are, and it depends on a case-by-case basis. And it's this way. If the prosecution and the defense one agree, it's called stipulation, then that can come in. The other way it comes in is the charts are never brought in, meaning you the squiggly lines that everyone's used to seeing, okay, and the needles and all that stuff. That's never going to be brought in, okay? But what's brought in reference to a polygraph is the professional polygraph report that's generated that has everything that was said and done in the polygraph interview. That's going to be able to be used in court as evidence, and that's admitted. And then the witness would be the examiner, because you've spoken to the examiner, and then he's a third party to whatever's going on, and he is able or she is able to testify in a court of law. And then it's going to be up again to the prosecutor, prosecutor, the defense attorney, and the judge to see if they are going to allow it in. Not always is allowed in, but if it is, boy, guess what? Pandora's boxes open up and it's going to be wide open. And I've testified numerous times, numerous times in many kinds of cases, from child sexual abuse to infidelity, marital custody matters. I have testified many times.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Busted.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Well, David, I want to thank you so much for being here. Hopefully, if anyone who needs these services can reach out and get the truth, get some some relief.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

That's what I say. Get some resolution, some relief, like you just said, and lower you that serious tension and anxiety, and finally say, Wow, I know I've been telling the truth all along. There, you don't you can't call me a liar anymore. The truth shall set you free. So true. So true. Tiffany, thank you for allowing me to come on your podcast. I reached out to you, obviously, because of your podcast, and I'm really grateful that you accepted me and I appreciate it. And so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Yes, thank you. Anytime something different, I like it, and I like to explore all different avenues.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

I appreciate you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Thank you.