When Family Becomes the Villain | Donna Hall

What if the person you needed to trust the most... was the one who framed your brother for murder? This episode will leave you questioning everything you think you know about family loyalty



All families have skeletons in the closet, but not every family can say

>> Tiffanie: All families have skeletons in the closet, but not every family can say that they found themselves into two of Philly's most notorious unsolved murder cases. My name is Tiffanie and I'm the host of True Crime Connections. If you are a first time here, hello and welcome. And if you've been here, welcome back. Today we are joined by the host of the podcast the Closet hall, and her name is Donna Hall.

>> Donna Hall: So.

>> Tiffanie: Hello, Donna.

>> Donna Hall: Hello. Hello. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Tiffanie.

>> Tiffanie: I'm excited to have you. This sounds like one hell of a story.

>> Donna Hall: It is, which is why I started podcasting.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, I see why.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Did you always know your family history or is this something that kind of came up later on in life?

>> Donna Hall: I mean, some of the stuff when I was growing up, I did know. I mean, obviously a lot of the abuse that I suffered, I would say is criminal. My mom spent six months in prison for leaving my sister home alone, so I knew about that. But I didn't find out about how many cases my stepfather was integral, like how many people he put away by creating false confessions. So I didn't find that out until I was in my 40s.

>> Tiffanie: Wow. So before your mom got married to John.

>> Donna Hall: John. There's a lot of them.

>> Tiffanie: Was she like, pretty straight laced?

>> Donna Hall: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. My mother, sadly had many men in her life, so she wasn't a good mother ever. I think she met her match with John and I think they had this, like, really toxic, like, bond, you know, trauma bond. And, I think that of all the marriages, she was with him, I think the longest than she was with anybody else, I think. I mean, I guess I really don't know that for sure, but there was just something about John that kept her attention and really kind of sprung her into real heavy duty crime. Because before that she would, you know, she did. She dabbled in prescription drug medication. She left us home alone. She, you know, knew that we were being physically abused, sexually abused, and still allowed that to happen, which in my mind is criminal. Right. But it wasn't until John came into her life that she really began with more criminal activity, which she has not ever. Aside from the, you know, being arrested and sent to jail for leaving my 12 year old sister home alone, she never was convicted or charged with any of these other crimes that she committed.

>> Tiffanie: Wow.


John Grademan's podcast is called the Hall Closet

I will let you get into, or I don't know where you want to start on this journey.

>> Donna Hall: Well, I guess I'd probably like to start so My podcast is called the Hall Closet. And the name. In the first episode I kind of explained why I named it the Hall Closet because it was kind of like my. Metaphorically, it was my place of refuge. And there was a specific incident that did happen where I found myself. I had crawled into the closet and I had been beaten pretty badly and I had peed my pants and shit my pants, which is horror horrific, to have happen. And I crawled into the closet and cried and passed out. And I was in there for several hours until my sister finally found me. And you know, it was like a sad scene because she was crying and, you know, helping me and all of that stuff. So that is the reason that I named it the Hall Closet. And also because I feel like my whole life has been like a journey to safety. And it really wasn't until I just started releasing this podcast and really being able to speak my truth that, I'm starting to, that I'm kind of like finalizing my healing journey. I don't know if it'll ever be fully finalized. Right. I'll spend the rest of my life. Right, Exactly. But I feel like it's a huge step and you know, not only for me, but also for the people that I'm sharing with too. And you know how people are coming to me and like sharing how they've been through stuff. And it's been incredibly healing to be able to help other people as well. So the reason I started a podcast was because, everybody that I know, all my therapists, my friends are always like, I can't keep your story straight. Like, you literally have a Netflix series. Like, like a three season Netflix series. When I start telling them and they're like, wait a second, they can never keep it together. So I had started writing a book for a few years and it just, it just never came to fruition. You know, it's just very easy to start and then stop. And you know, I met this incredible producer, Alan Katz, who if any of you know who he is, he is like an amazing little guy who has so much talent and the ability to just create such beautiful work. And he and I collaborated and created, the pod, created the whole series. And it's been amazing because he could really, he really took my story and helped me shape it. Because the difficulty that I have is there's so many layers to it. So for instance, I'm going to give you, gosh, I have so many things, but I'm going to give you an example. You asked me Did I know this my whole life? It wasn't until I was in my 40s that I even knew anything about what John had really done. And it was because I had gotten my DNA done through Ancestry. And then 23andMe and I found out that my mom had an artificial insemination and she got a donor, who I know now, I have never met him. He doesn't want to meet us, which is fine, but I know who he is. He was a doctor from the city, from Philadelphia area who donated his sperm. And I have these siblings all across the country, okay? Like amazing human beings that I've connected with. And a week after I found out that I was sperm, do you know that I was a product of a sperm donation? And a week after I met my two brand new half sisters, who are amazing, by the way, I was talking about my family. And you know when you are just meeting someone who is related to you by blood, you're like, you want to share. But, like, my story is so crazy. I don't want to scare anybody away because she's this like, you know, she's a radiologist and she has this, you know, beautiful life. And, you know, to me she looks picture perfect. And I'm like, I don't want to share with her what really happened to me, but on the other hand, you know, I'll share a little bit. So I gave her my mom's name and she said to me, wait a second, Phyllis Hall? She's like, is she married to John hall, the Philadelphia jailhouse snitch? And I was like, yeah, how did you know that? And she's like, I just read a book about your stepfather. And I was like, wait, what? And she's like, I just read a book called the Trials of Walter o' Grad. And she's like, your mom, your stepfather, your brother and your sister are in the book. You weren't mentioned, but they were. And I was like, are you kidding me? So of course I go on Google. This was, you know, several years ago. And I order the book immediately and start listening to it. And I'm like, holy shit. Like, it literally leveled me. Like, I could not get out of bed. I threw up at one point reading some of the stuff in it because I was so horrified that this was my mother. I was so horrified that my mother did these things that my mother was. And I'll share this with you. One of. So you talked in the beginning about this is what I'm saying. It's so confusing because there's so Many pieces and so many layers. But so I read the book, I got upset. But the thing that made me most upset is that my mom, I found out in this book, even though I knew the details of what I learned about how she set my brother, her son up for murder. So her husband and her set my brother up for a very high profile murder in Philadelphia called. It was the Center City Jogger murder. And she was this beautiful, young, aspiring attorney, I think, or paralegal maybe. I think she was an aspiring attorney who was going for a morning jog. And she was found horrifically raped. And she was found, like murdered and, you know, basically raped and sodomized. And the position that she was found in was, like, horrific. And it was a shock because it was a beautiful neighborhood in Philadelphia. So it wasn't like, you know, the streets of Kensington. It was literally like a high class neighborhood. So it was such a high profile crime. And my mom had just gotten out of jail for leaving my sister home alone. And my brother was the one who went to the police about her being left home alone. So in order to get back at my brother, my mom and my stepfather set him up and he went to jail. He was. They. It was horrible. It was a really horrible situation. And to learn that, like, the little pieces that I learned, like, she had a necklace made.


My stepfather was a drug addict. His drug of choice was Percocets

Okay, so, John, so. So my stepfather, what he was like, Am I getting too confusing? Is it getting too confusing? Okay, good. So my stepfather was a drug addict. And he. His drug of choice was Percocets. And he did, you know, like, basically like Oxys, those types of things. And then of course it goes. Turns into heroin. But he used to print his own prescriptions and he would get, you know, whatever drugs he wanted. He would write his prescriptions for drugs and he would, you know, get them. he eventually would get caught, but mostly he would get caught from stealing cars or passing out in cars because he took so many drugs. He would not out. So he would go into jail and in order to get out, he would write a false confession. Now, this confession was not like something that he got from any person. He literally wrote it. He created all these elaborate, like, out of whack, crazy, like, novels, okay. That were very theatrical in nature. Like, the things that he would say that happened were, like, theatrical in a lot of ways. Like, I have a lot of the letters, I have some of the confessions, and the police used them. The police would then start using him if they had a particular crime that they wanted solved. And he was always in and out of jail. So they would use them, and he. He would write these elaborate stories, and my mom was on the outside helping him. So she would pose as a reporter and go into the home of the victim and look at what color is the carpet, what do the shades look like? You know, what is the. Tell me what the inside of the house looks like. So she could go back and report to him all of these details that he could put in these confessions, and that would make them more realistic, Right? God, is it not crazy? I'm getting the chills even talking about it. Right. And so one of the things that he. That my stepfather had wanted to do was he had my mom. And this is what made me sick. This is when. I mean, I haven't spoken to my mom since I was 15. Anyway. I'd moved out some when I was 15, but it was, like, devastating to me that she would. Even though I don't really have a good relationship with my brother, knowing that she would go to these lengths for her husband. Boyfriend at the time. I don't even know if they were married at this time, but. So he said to her, I want you to go get a necklace made that we can say was Kimberly's. We're going to say that Herbie, my brother, had it on his person, stuck it up his butt and brought it in. Because he didn't have time to get rid of it, right? Because he was arrested while he. He had had a court date. The same morning that Kimberly Ernest was found dead, he had had a court date in Bucks County. And they went to court, and then they came and got him. They took him to Philly to talk to him, Mirandize him and, you know, question him, and they beat him pretty badly. So my stepfather said, yeah, we're gonna say that Herb left this necklace. You're gonna smuggle it into me. You're gonna get it made, smuggle it into me, and I'm gonna plant it on his. In his cell. Just how crazy. And my mom did it. She got the necklace made.

>> Tiffanie: Was it like a picture of the girl or something?

>> Donna Hall: It was like. I think it was like a Kimberly or a K or something. I don't even know. But she ended up not doing it. So I think she had an attorney. And the end, I guess maybe she had talked to the attorney, and I guess they knew that he was. You know, I don't really know, but she did. Either she grew a conscience, which I highly doubt, or somebody recommended that she not do that. I think that she maybe was afraid that she was, like, taking it as a little step too far. So she never ended up bringing the necklace to John, So that was thrown out. And my brother was eventually acquitted of the murder, but he spent, you know, 18 months in jail and was beaten by the police and, you know, coerced. And, you know, there were a lot of really horrible things that were happened to him while he was in there.

>> Tiffanie: That is insane. So she got the necklace made, but she didn't actually bring it to him. Holy shit. And to set up your own child, like, that's just a whole nother level.

>> Donna Hall: It's a whole nother level. And it's like, just goes to show, like, how.

>> Tiffanie: She'S narcissistic. Sociopath.

>> Donna Hall: I would say more sociopathic than narcissistic. I think that, you know, that really trumps narcissism.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, no, that's why I was like, wait a minute. No, no.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah, and we've definitely thought about that. I mean, you know, it's. I. I mean, I don't know, like, hurting people. Hurt people. So, like, what the hell happened to her as a kid to make her this way? But I have empathy for people. It's just very difficult for me because she literally abandoned me. You know, she never loved me. And I look back on it, and I think she didn't love me because I was different. You know, I was from really good genes. And I think I talk about it a lot. Nature versus nurture. You know, I had this horrible upbringing that most people don't recover from or can't recover from. And because I have these really good, solid genes, my father is an.


My bio dad is an amazing human being. And I could not have asked for a better bio dad

My bio dad is an amazing human being. And I mean amazing. Like, I could not have asked for a better bio dad. I've never met him, but everything I know about him is amazing. And I'm just so incredibly thankful that I have his genes, because there's no doubt in my mind that that's why I was able to really, you know, persevere and, you know, transcendently move out of that world.

>> Tiffanie: It almost makes you wonder, though, why would she even, like, go out of her way to be inseminated to have another child? You know what I mean? You're already, like, not taking care of the ones you have.

>> Donna Hall: Well, not only that, So I have three older siblings. Not one's 11 years older than me. One's nine. Then my brother Herb is six years older than me. Not only that, but my mom, m. Was a serial cheater. Like, she. She couldn't Be faithful to any man. I would say she probably was faithful to John, though, but she couldn't be faithful to men. And she had boyfriends after boyfriends after boyfriends. And so it's shocked. So she told me when I was 14 years old, 12 years old, that she had gotten artificial insemination. And I asked my sibling, they were like, no, she didn't. No, she didn't. Like, she's has five boyfriends at all time. No, she. Like, she's lying. But it turns out she wasn't. She. She. See, here's the thing with her. She does whatever she needs to do to make the man that she's with happy. And he couldn't have kids, so she did that to make him happy.

>> Tiffanie: That makes sense.

>> Donna Hall: She gave. But the problem is Tiffanie is the man that she was married to. His name was Frank. His last name was also Hall. So she married a Frank hall. Then she married a John Hall. Frank was sexually and physically abusing her three children and her. So she brought me and my younger sister into a home, into this home. She had us. She paid to have me. Despite the fact that the man that she's trying to please is a predator and a horrible human being. So, of course I was sexually abused by him. And, you know, my older siblings were my younger sister. Don't know if she was as well. Actually, I. There's court documents that show that. Although, you know, I always wonder, was my mom, was that real? Because my mom does whatever she needs to do to hurt people, so you never know if she was telling the truth. But, yeah, it's. She's a horrible human being. And I hate to say that as Mother's Day approaches, because we're recording right before Mother's Day.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, it is what it is, though, and you have every right to feel the way that you do.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah, I do. I. You know, what it did for me is it made me want to be a better mother. I know I have a 25 and a 21 year old, and I know that I've disappointed them in many ways, as all parents do, but I will never allow my children to be hurt the way that I was hurt. And I will always be here for them, no matter what. The one thing I always still, no matter how horrible my mother was to me, I always wanted her love. Even as an adult, you know, even as an adult. And even though I didn't let her see my kids, I always wished that she would just reach out, that she would turn that corner, that she would be you know, have enough years behind her to finally put that life aside and really make a full effort for me. And she never has, ever. So, in fact, the last time I saw her, she literally didn't even talk to me. Like, we. We had like a Christmas, like a little event that, you know, my. My oldest sister was like, I think mom's gonna die soon. We should all get together and, you know, have like a Christmas. And we never did that ever, ever, ever. This was the first time we've ever done it. And she literally didn't even talk to me or my daughter, you know, so it's kind of sad, but I will never do that to my. To my children ever. You know, even. No matter. No matter what they do, no matter what happens, they pick up the phone and call me. I will be there for them, 24 7, no matter what, if they choose to call me, you know, Absolutely.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, you have to break the cycle. And I mean, same thing with me, you know, I'm a product of generational abuse. And of course, all parents, we fuck up our kids in little doses. Like, no parent can be like, oh, I did a marvelous job. You're lying. So we all do. Okay. But you got to learn from that and just know, you don't repeat that. And you just, I mean, there's ways to overcome it. It's not the end of the world. You just, you make up for it and you keep trucking on. So, I mean, I think that you doing amazing, so you're lucky to turn out like her.

>> Donna Hall: Thank you. Thank you. And I'm lucky that I didn't turn out like her. Absolutely. And I would say that most of us, like, you know, I think we're all doing pretty good, but, it's hard to really top that. It's hard to really top the shit that she did. Now, I will say this to you. Yes, I know that I've been through a lot, but I know that so many people have been through a lot worse.


One of the biggest lessons that I've learned is taking responsibility for mistakes

You know, I wasn't sex trafficked. I wasn't, you know, burnt with cigarettes. Like, I work with these kids that have been through horrible situations. You know, I know a girl whose mom allowed men to have sex with her for drugs, you know, at 15 years old. And I'm like, I could not imagine that. So I feel like I had, you know, yeah, I had some fucked up shit in my life, but like, nothing like they have, you know. But my story is, and my whole family story is just absolutely. You just can't make it up. It's just completely unbelievable.

>> Tiffanie: Right? And trauma's not tit for tat. You know, like, even if it was something like, oh, my parents locked me outside for 24 hours, as little as that may be, that's still that person's trauma. It doesn't matter. You're entitled to feel the way you do, and that's okay.

>> Donna Hall: Absolutely. Yeah. And. And that's absolutely. You're absolutely right. I mean, 100%. And I know that, like, again, as a mom, I know that my kids have their own memories and trauma where they are holding me, you know, like, they blame me for it. And. And that's okay, you know? And one of the biggest lessons that I've learned and I try to really continue to emulate throughout my life is that I will take responsibility for the things I did. Yeah. I. Up. I'm sorry. I. That. Up, you know, I'm sorry. Just know that I love you, and I did the best that I could. I did the best that I could. And my intention. And. And in life in general, you know, it's one of the big. Another big lesson that I've learned is, like, when people hurt you, did they intend to hurt you, or were they just selfish? Did they intend, you know, even cheating? Like, does a person who cheats on their spouse intend to hurt their spouse? No, they're just a selfish son of a bitch. They're selfish. They want to do what they want to do. Does that still, you know, say that it's okay to do that? No, but it gives you a better understanding of why they hurt you. You know, it's. If that makes sense.

>> Tiffanie: Makes total sense.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah. So I try to emulate that in my life, and I try to, like, take accountability for, you know. Yeah, I fucked up. You know, I. I didn't have the best parents as role models, and, you know, I. I should have done this, and I wish I could go back, but I can't. So, you know, I'm sorry and I love you, and I'll make up for it if I can, you know, forgive me. And I think if we all. If everybody. If every parent in the world took responsibility, I think the world would be a better place. So many. Right, right. And again, I'm not saying I'm, And I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I feel like if people can admit it, then it'll. It'll come a long way in forgiveness and healing and, you know, when people know that they're understood and heard and, you know, and validated. It makes a huge difference.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, for sure. That's a big thing. I preach on my show is like, own your shit. Like, we all are gonna make mistakes. It's okay. As long as you're learning and you're growing from it and don't repeat it, then you're fine.

>> Donna Hall: Exactly.

>> Tiffanie: But they even put an innocent man on death row for 24 years.

>> Donna Hall: More than. More than one. They put more than one man on death row. Yeah, he, Walter o' Grad. So he is, like, the sweet, sweetest guy. So here's what he looks like. This is the book. I have nothing to do with the book, so I'm not, like, selling it, but this is the book. This was him when he was arrested. He is an autistic man. M. Who is odd, right? He. He's odd because he's autistic. He doesn't know how to communicate like normal. And back in the day, 2020, you know, 30. It was 35 years ago. @ this point, autism wasn't a thing. So he was arrested because he was a neighbor across the street. There were other circumstances. They thought that they. They thought that he was an easy guy to pin it on. Okay, so they did arrest him for it. They had created some false confession.


Joe Devlin beat Walt and basically beat a confession out of him

I think, regardless, Joe Devlin, who was a, dirty cop in Philadelphia, like, beat Walt and basically beat a confession out of him. But he wasn't able to understand. He would ask him questions and say, okay, this is what happened, right? And then Walt would say, yes. And he's like, no, that's not what you're supposed to say. So he didn't have an attorney. He had this confession. That was bullshit. They. They locked him up. When it came to trial, they had this confession. One person on the jury. It was a hung jury, so they had to retry him. Okay, so during this retrial, the DA went to John and said, we need a confession out of this guy. So John began writing the confession. Well, then there was another case that came up that was even bigger than his case. So the D.A. pulled Rabino. no. Her name was Rubino, right? Was that her name? Anyway, my. My brain is not working right now. I don't remember what her name was off the top of my head. God, I don't know how I forget. I say it all the time. All day. I forget. Anyway, the DA pulled him off this case and had him use another guy. Okay? So John wrote this confession, gave it to this other guy, and said, you're going to say that he confessed to you. So then that's what happens. So they sent him to trial with an entirely different confession. not even remotely similar to the first confession. An entirely different confession that John concocted. Gave to this Walter. Gave to the J. Walchansky was the guy's name. He's no longer living, by the way. Yeah, he. He was. He was sent to death row for. He spent 20 over 29 years. It was like 29 years, 8 months and 29 days or something like that in prison, 24 of which was on death row.

>> Tiffanie: I would sue the shit out of everybody. Oh, my God.

>> Donna Hall: He did. He did. He did. So when I found out about this, but. And I found out about what they did to him, I was, like, mortified, and I tried to reach out to him. I ended up connecting with his brother at my church, which was really strange. Connected with his brother, started, you know, communicating with them. I was. The day that he got out of prison. Now, they didn't want me there. Not him. He wanted me there. But, like, some of his people were like, this is the person who put you away's daughter? Like, no, you're. She's not coming. So they disinvited me, which was really sad. And I cried a lot about that because I would have loved to have been there the day that he got out of prison. But regardless, it doesn't matter, because I've been there for him ever since. And we have. I just got off the phone with him 10 minutes ago because I help him with, like, all of his insurance paperwork and, like, he doesn't know how to work his printer. And, you know, like, I help him, like, with his, you know, figuring out, like, what doctors to go to. I've gone with him to some doctors. He had, like, hip replacement. I. You know, when he first got out, I, like, made sure to get him some clothing and, you know, took him around. We went out to dinner. I like, you know, had him come over my house and hang out and just. I've gone to see him and, you know, just kind of wanted to, like, if there was any way that I could make up for what had happened, you know. And on top of that, the fact that he's autistic, I work with, you know, in the special education department, so I work with autistic children, and I am very well aware on how to handle them. And, you know, I became really friendly with him. So we talk once a week, at least. I don't say him as much as I want, but, yeah, I talk to him a little too often probably. And he's actually on my podcast so you can listen to him. Like I bring him on and it's really fun.

>> Tiffanie: Okay.

>> Donna Hall: It's really fun to hear from him. And he's, he's a little bit difficult to understand because he talks really fast and he sometimes like doesn't answer. You know, he's autistic, so he's got some issues with that. And you know, but I call him out like, yo, stop, calm down, slow down, stop talking, let somebody else talk.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, I'm just so happy he was able to get like some life back. That's such a long time to be behind bars for something you had nothing.

>> Donna Hall: To do with, let alone a murder of a little girl. Like, can you imagine how they treated him in prison? You know, this girl, this, the story was this four year old little girl was found in a TV box, raped and beaten to death.

>> Tiffanie: Oh my God.

>> Donna Hall: She was found in a TV box on the. Down at the trash. Yes. It was horrible.


My mom helped get Walter O' Grad out of prison after 29 years

And let me tell you, I have to say this to believe it or not, my mom is part of the reason that he's out of jail because she came forward and spoke to this author, Tom Lowenstein, and she, you know, he like became friendly with her and you know, she confided a lot of things to him. And I think to some degree she did want to make up for the crap that she did. But I also think there's a piece of her that wanted the limelight, you know, So I don't really know.

>> Tiffanie: Is she still with John?

>> Donna Hall: Oh, John's dead.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, okay.

>> Donna Hall: John died like 20 years ago. He got out of prison and I guess him and my mom had like, had a lot of like, I guess they had broken up. And I think he was homeless at the time. I'm not really sure, but he was found like on the side of the road. No, on the side of the, the side of the like a, A B embankment on a body of water, like in a park of a drug overdose, which could have been a hot shot. You know, he put a lot of people behind bars. There's a guy currently who's still behind bars that he was integral in putting behind bars. His name is Dean Dixon, who they are trying to. They were working really hard to get him out of prison and he spent a good 20 some years as well in jail.

>> Tiffanie: I just couldn't imagine I'd be a mess. Like, I don't know if I would have lasted that long. You know what I Mean, like, I don't belong here. Like, I just. I don't.

>> Donna Hall: I get. I get the chills thinking about.

>> Tiffanie: I have them. I get goosebumps.

>> Donna Hall: Me too. So do I. And I. And I always ask this question, like, this is like a burning question that I have inside of me. Like, do you feel like it's worse to be convicted of a crime that you didn't commit and spend 20 years in jail? Or do you think it's worse that the killer was. Remains free? Like, and there's no. It's like a hard question, right? Because I don't know, man. I don't know. I mean, I guess, because of our Constitution, of course. I think that, you know, our system is just. And, you know, that doesn't happen, but it happens.

>> Tiffanie: Happens all the time. And I'd say it would. It's more of a problem if you're behind bars for something you didn't do, because people are going to think it's solved. You're not even looking for the killer anymore.

>> Donna Hall: Well, and, that's what I'm saying. Like, you know, Barbara Jean's parents, which, by the way, her name is Sharon Fahey, and she's amazing. She testified and was. Well, I don't know if she testified, but she basically went to the DA and said, we want Walter out. We know he didn't do it. This was after 29 years, but she was helpful in getting him out, which makes me really happy. And I've met with her and we met together, and it's been a great thing. She didn't come on my podcast, but she is. I just found out that she is coming on Tom, Lowenstein, who's the writer of the trials of Walter O' Grad, and he spent almost, God, 16, 17 years researching, writing the book. And truly is the reason that Walt's out, he is creating a podcast about all of John. My stepfather's, like, basically going into detail about each of the people that he put away.

>> Tiffanie: That's just insane. Like, you have to have absolutely no moral compass. Like, nothing. You have to be dead inside.

>> Donna Hall: So, interestingly enough, he felt like he did have a moral compass and he convinced himself that he was putting these horrible people away. Right? Because that's what addicts do. That's what crazy people do. They make everybody else the, perpetrator. So in his mind, when someone, the police come to him and give him a file, because that's what they did, he would go in the law library and they would hand him the file. So Only people who would know the information are the police, detectives, the victims, the real killer, and then John. So John would have all these details to write his confession on top of what my mom was getting. But in his mind, he convinced himself that they were guilty because he was creative, right? So he had this create. He was an extremely intelligent man. and he was a beauty, an amazing writer, which I've read all, not all, because there's just way too many. But, you know, he. He, in his mind, thought that he was like a God. He felt like a God.

>> Tiffanie: I almost feel like it goes even deeper than that. Like, so clearly, you know, the state's up in uproar. They want somebody held accountable. You know, this guy is gonna paint the pretty picture. Like, they were almost, like, in cahoots with each other. I need to look good. We need to get someone away. So, you know, the press leaves this alone. And you're pretty good at this, so what you got?

>> Donna Hall: Yep. That's exactly what happened. That's exactly what happened. And the reason my mom left my sister home alone was because he had all of his connections in Philadelphia. So if he got arrested here in Bucks, he didn't have all those connections. So in Philly, he got arrested. He knew he was getting out because he knew that they would find someone for him to rat. And he walked around, and you wanted to.


My brother became a thief. He was horribly abused by his father

So here's another little piece that's interesting. I keep. I'm going to just keep going with them. You want to know how my mom and John met? This is the most bizarre story. Don't tell him. The church. No. God, no. God, no. My brother was in jail, and he met this guy, John hall, who claimed to be a doctor, who he wasn't. He told everybody that. I guess someone had. He had lied at one point and said that he was a doctor and he was in there for writing bad scripts. And my brother said to my mom, there's this guy I want you to meet. And they started talking. So my mom became. He was like my. He was my mom's jailhouse romance. So he started. John started writing her. My mom started coming to visit him, and not my brother, I might add. Talking to her on a regular basis. He came out. He moved in with us.

>> Tiffanie: That is insane. What was your brother in for?

>> Donna Hall: So my brother has been a little pain in the ass his whole life. Sadly, he was. His father died when he was very young, which we're all kind of thinking that my mom might have had something to do with that. He was hit by a Car. And there was kind of, like, no reason for him to be on the road, so, like, walking across the highway. So we think that had him killed. But he was troubled. I think he probably had adhd, and he was a little. And none of my mom's men liked him. He was horribly abused by my father, who's not really my father, Frank, who I told you about. Like, horrifically abused. And he just did whatever he wanted. And he was like a thief. He was a petty thief. He would steal, he would vandalize. So he was like a petty criminal, you know, being arrested for robbing houses, being arrested for writing fake checks. So he's been in and out of institutions or, you know, jails, like, detention centers since he was, you know, 15, 16 years old.

>> Tiffanie: His way of acting now, but it.

>> Donna Hall: Was his way of acting out. But my mom encouraged it. My mom didn't give a shit. My mom was like, bring me the jewelry. Like, if you're going to rob a house, bring me the jewelry. My mother, when we were kids, like, we would go to Kmart. You remember Kmart? I don't think they're around anymore. We would go to Kmart, and she would put stuff in our pockets. She would put stuff in our pockets to walk out with. Like, I'm the mom. If I found my kid steal something, Like, I'll never forget my sons took something from this local little, bagel shop. I marched him right back in there. I said, you give that back and you apologize immediately. I made him. Held him accountable for that shit. My mom put the stuff in us. And you know what's crazy again? Nature versus nurture. My brother became a thief. Me, I'm a rule follower. Like, I can't. If I forget that bottle, that case of water on the bottom of my car, and I walk out without paying for it, I' going back and paying for it. Like, I. In my conscience, I can't. I can't steal. I can't cheat people, you know, so I'm. Again, it's that, I'm just so thankful that I have the genes that I have, because without them, I, don't know where I'd be.

>> Tiffanie: Right. No. I mean, you don't. Do you know if those other, like, the. The girl in the TV box and then the runner, were those ever solved?

>> Donna Hall: No, never. They were never solved. No. I thought about. I have a season two coming out, and Tom and I thought about possibly doing like, a, you know, let's try to solve this crime. So that might be something that we do in the future. My season two, though, if you're interested. Because I think, while a lot of people want to hear from me and they want to hear more of my stories and they want me to get deeper because I do share some pretty vulnerable things, I decided that I wanted to kind of go a different route. And I am going to be. And this is. I'm just sharing this with you right now. So this is like exclusive content, because I haven't shared this with anybody. Yeah, it's exclusive. I just kind of. Starting next week, we're going to be recording, but I am going to interview with an attorney from the Georgia Innocence Project. We are going to be interviewing exonerees, so talking to people who've. And I have the chills again, who've spent their life or a good significant amount of time in prison for crimes they didn't commit and were exonerated.


I'm going to focus on exonerees who have had convictions overturned

And what I want to do, which is different than I've heard, is I want to kind of take it on a deeper level and not really get into the details of the crime or like, the law piece and the appellate, court and all that bullshit. I want to really talk about the real shit. What did it feel like to be put in handcuffs? What did it feel like when they. That came down? What it. How were you treated? Did people hurt you? What was it like every day, you know, what. What did you eat? What was it like coming out like? I want to get into the deeper level of, you know, what people really. What these people really truly experience. And hopefully they're willing to get deep with me. I don't know if they will be.

>> Tiffanie: But I'm telling, you, I think they will, because, yeah, they're free. And they want people to know what they've been through because they should have never been through it. There's so many people who end up getting, you know, it overturned, and they just look at life so different. And, it almost makes you realize, like, sometimes we take our freedom for granted. It can be taken away just like that, over nothing. You don't even have to do anything.

>> Donna Hall: Right, Exactly.

>> Tiffanie: You.

>> Donna Hall: Somebody could set you up, you know, and. And you, Know, I was. It's funny, I was just talking to this lawyer that I'm going to be working with, and. And I said, you know, the sad part about corruption is it's not only corruption. I mean, yes, I'm going to focus on that because this is what kind of has been a big significant part of my life. I'm going to, you know, focus on exonerees. And people have spent significant amount of time. But there's also that other piece of corruption where you have police officers whose friends have committed murders and crimes and then help them cover it up and do all the wrong corrupt fucking things. So then they put in, they don't get arrested. Maybe somebody else gets arrested, you know, or they just think, oh, that was self defense. When really it wasn't. Like, I was just listening, listening to, a, a case. I don't have my phone in front of me, but I was just listening to a podcast about this guy who, you know, shot someone on the side of the road and they said it was road rage and he was following them. And here it turns out his, he set the whole thing up and the and his friend was the cop and his friend got him off.

>> Tiffanie: It's just sickening. Like, I was watching a show once and this cop was pulling people over and then raping them in their cars. Like, you just, you don't know. You don't. And he always picked certain people, you know, like they look you up or you're on your license and it's just, it's insane.

>> Donna Hall: Like, it's like racial profiling, but like, victim profiling. Oh, really?

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely.

>> Donna Hall: And then it's like, then they scare you because it's like, well, I'm a cop. Don't with me. You know, you tell somebody, I'm gonna come after you. You know, nobody's gonna believe you. And you have a week and you know, listen, I'm a strong individual and I've been victimized. And it is hard. It is hard to come out on the other side of that. It is hard to stand up.


After my divorce, I was dating a guy who was perfect

I'm gonna share another, like, little exclusive thing that I've never shared on, on the air yet. Just about being victimized. I. After my divorce, I was dating a guy who I was single for about five years and I was dating a guy who was like, perfect. He was attractive, he had a great job, he made good money, his family was amazing. He had these beautiful children and he like, loved bomb the shit out of me. Like, did all this, Told me all how beautiful I was. Did all these like, crazy, like, just. I just never felt so loved or appreciated in my life and I just fell head over heels in love with him. And my house was robbed. I was living with my children on my own. My house was robbed. I move in with him temporarily because I don't have anywhere else to go and I don't want to stay in the house. And he's like, come live with me. You know, come stay with me. We packed my house up, I went and stayed with him. We, you know, I'm looking for another place. And he's like, I don't want you to get another place place. Like, let's get a place together. And I'm like, it's kind of early. We were only dating, like, six or eight months or something. And I was like, oh, well, fuck it. Fine. Whatever. And this is part of the reason that my son, you know, has issues, and I completely understand. So we move in together. My children move in his. You know, he gets visitation well within. So we moved in November, the beginning of November, by Christmas Eve. I can't believe I'm sharing this. Christmas Eve, I get a call from him. we weren't getting along okay. We moved in, and he didn't like my son. He didn't want my kids at the house if it wasn't our custodial time. And I was like, these are my children. They are going to be at my house whenever. First of all, I put all the money down on the house. Secondly, if my kids want to be with me, they're going to fucking be with me whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, then you can leave. and he didn't like that. He didn't like that I was telling him what he needed. I was standing up for myself. But instead of hurting me, he was hurting my dog. So when I would. When I would go to work or when I wasn't home, he was beating my dog, like, really, really badly. And I didn't realize it because he would make excuses. Oh, the dog. You know, the dog was limping. Oh, the dog. I tripped over the dog this morning. And then he wanted to take over feeding the dog. So I was like, I loved it because I'm the mom. So I always did everything. I worked, I fed the kids. I did. You know, I did everything. So to have a man who was willing to take over one of my responsibilities, I was like, great. Well, turns out he wasn't feeding my dog. And, you know, when you see someone every day or you see your dog every day, you don't really realize they're losing weight. So. So it wasn't until we moved in together, he called me and he's like, donna, I'm sorry to tell you this, but the dog got out from the fence. Well, my dog doesn't run. He's not a runner. He's like, stays home, he's lazy. Like, he's not running. And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, yeah, I came home, I let him out, the gate was open, and he's gone. Well, we end up getting. You know, I was devastated. The kids, yeah. Of course now at the time, I'm like, what the fuck's on? Going. Going on. All of a sudden, you know, he sees how devastated me and my kids are. I tell his kids they're devastated, and I think he got a conscience. And he called animal control and had them call me, you know, Then they found him and they called me, and I went and picked him up. And the, dog had no collar, and he was found five miles from my house. I took him immediately to the vet. The vet was like, he did not walk five miles. His paws are completely fine. If he walked five miles, he. His paws. Because he does. He's an inside dog, right? Like, so his paws would be like. You know, you could tell, and that could tell. So I, of course, questioned him. And that was the point where I was like, what the am I doing with this guy? I knew, but I didn't know. And then Christmas Eve, I, you know, I came home. He called me and said, the dog just bit me. Get this fucking dog out of my house. And I'm like, fuck you. I came home, my dog was standing outside in the rain, gushing blood from all areas. I picked him up. I took him right to my vet.


My dog had 24 broken ribs, some of which were twice broken

literally picked him up. There was. The towel was covered in blood. He had. I ended up taking him to my vet's house. I called her and I said, I think my dog has been beaten. Please can you see me? And she's like, I'm on my way out on a date, but come to my house. I went. She's like, this dog is being abused. Do not take him back there. So I called my girlfriend and I told her, and I had to work that night. So I took my dog to my girlfriend's house. I'm going on and on about this story. Basically, he beat him so bad over this period, and I had no idea. He had 24 broken ribs. My dog had 20. Every single one of his ribs was broken. Every single one of his ribs. Some of which they were. Some of which, they were broken twice. And it happened when I wasn't home. You would think, how would I not know? There were little things that were happening. Like, when I would walk by him, he would, like, wince. But again, is this me being a fucked up woman attracting this type of man and not really seeing. Seeing it. People are like, how could you not see it? I'm like, when you're in a situation like that, you just don't know. But as soon as I found out I was done. I went to the police. I got him out of the house. I called the DA Every single day, every single Monday. I called him and I said, please prosecute. Please prosecute, please prosecute. And they did. And he got a year in jail.

>> Tiffanie: Good.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah. Yeah, he got a year in jail. But my point to the story was I went long and long and long, and I'm so sorry for that. The point is, is that I'm a strong woman. Right. Like, who? Literally, people. I'll tell you what I think. Like, I'm not afraid to have an argument with you. I'm not afraid to tell you. I don't agree with you. I'm strong. But yet I felt so weak. I felt so defeated. I felt so afraid. You know, I, like, went to bed with my kids in my room with, like, furniture up against the door because I was afraid he was going to come back. Like, you know, traumatizing. And, yeah, my kids are traumatized, and I. And. And they have trauma from that, and it's. It's horrible.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. I mean, it is hard to see that, though, especially, like, with a dog, like you said, like, unless you physically see them limping or bleeding or, you know, you're not gonna know that their. Their insides are broken.

>> Donna Hall: So. Right.

>> Tiffanie: Unfortunately, they can't talk. So.

>> Donna Hall: Right. And he was the coolest dog. Like, he. Nobody could believe that he was beaten because he had such an amazing personality. Like, he was just such a lover. And, you know, he still loved Chris even though he had done that. You know, this was the, the guy's name. I can't believe I just said it. But, yeah, he still, like, had. You know, I don't know. It's. It's just. It's an interesting story and one that I was planning on sharing on my podcast, but I just shared it on yours, so. So all my listeners better tune in and listen.

>> Tiffanie: You know how that effect on people.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Is the dog no longer with us?

>> Donna Hall: So he. He survived. But, yeah, he did end up passing, and sadly, I had to put him down because of his injuries. Later on in life, as he got older, he wasn't able to, like, hit it. It had done so much significant damage to his hips that he wasn't able to recover, like, maybe a little bit of a healthier dog. So ultimately, he took, you know, he. He really took that dog for me. But let me tell you something. I'm gonna tell you this right now. I found out that he adopted a dog last year, and I did everything in my power, and let me tell you, the organization that gave him the dog and allowed him to take the dog went with the police and picked that dog up and took it right from his home. And I promised my Rocky that I would not allow him if I would do, not that I wouldn't allow, but I would do everything in my power to. To not allow him to hurt another dog.


You say you never would have been with a man like that ever

>> Tiffanie: Good for you.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah. Yeah. I worked with his girlfriend's sister, and we got the dog out of there, and the sister took, you know, took the dog. And sadly, he has a new, younger girlfriend. They just had a new baby. He's in his 50s. She's in her 30s. And, you know, she doesn't believe that he did any of that stuff to my dog. But I found out, truly. Yeah. Well, and this is just like. This just talks like, you know, we're talking about criminals, right? Like, he's a criminal. I found out after I didn't know this, and I was, like, mortified that nobody told me. Like, I said to his ex wife, who I'm very close with now, I said, why didn't you tell me? She's like, I couldn't get involved because he was so horrible of a person. Like, I couldn't tell you because. Whatever. I couldn't tell you because I was afraid of what he would do to me and my children, whatever. But it turned out that he had killed three puppies from his previous girlfriend and spent six months on house arrest. So, ladies, you single ladies out there, look these men up. look up the docket sheets, Go onto your local county court, look up their name, and find out who they really are. Because if I had known that, I promise you, my dog would have not been hurt. I never would have been with a man like that ever.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, there's so many free tools out there to really just cover your ass, because people will tell you what you want to hear. So, yeah, you got to go find who they really are.

>> Donna Hall: Well, and, like, people like him who look good, who act like everybody loved him, you know, he really, looking back on it, he didn't really have any friends. That should have been a cue for me. I have, you know, my little circle of friends. He really didn't have any friends. He never went out. He wanted to, like, get together with me really quick. And when I didn't want to move in with, him, the police feel like he had my house robbed. They feel like he did that. So I would then move in with him and then I'd be need him.

>> Tiffanie: Master manipulator.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah. So my eyes are wide open now and let me tell you, I look everybody up, absolutely everybody. And I look my friend's men up too. I'm like, hey, let's look him up. Come on, let's do that.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, nowadays you can't be too safe, like, you know what I mean? Like, it can't hurt anything, so.

>> Donna Hall: Right. Well, they have that whole reverse image thing online too, which I think is amazing. Like you can like look an image up and find out that they're.

>> Tiffanie: Make sure they're real, you know?

>> Donna Hall: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. So, yeah, that's the story.

>> Tiffanie: that is insane. Like, absolutely insane. But I just want you to know, like, I am so proud of you. Like, I feel like you have come a long ways and you need to give yourself the credit that you deserve, you know?

>> Donna Hall: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It's hard. It's hard. I'm, the, of course, we're all us, women are hard on ourselves and you know, I, I'm my own worst critic, but I appreciate that. And, and I think a lot of my growth happened this last year with this podcast. Truly, like being able to get out here and share and talk to amazing people like you, you know, it's just, it's really healing.


Tiffany says her son is proud of her podcast

>> Tiffanie: Yes. Oh my God. I have literally, even my son told me, like, this podcast has probably like changed my entire life.

>> Donna Hall: Oh, that's great. Isn't that great? So your son's proud of you in your podcast?

>> Tiffanie: He is little.

>> Donna Hall: Oh, good, good. How old is he?

>> Tiffanie: He'll be 20 in like three weeks. Two weeks.

>> Donna Hall: Oh, wow. So we have a similar age kids. Yeah, they, they either. Oh, they, they're your the toughest critic, right?

>> Tiffanie: Oh yeah. But it just, it makes me feel good because I see my growth and so nobody can take that from us.

>> Donna Hall: No, they can't. And you know what, Tiff? I feel, really feel it because I've listened to some of your episodes. I really feel like you're, you know, the big thing that Alan, my executive producer and I talk about and what is really important to us. It's actually a Jewish term. It's called Tikun olam. I literally have it on my computer. It's T I K K U n O l am. It's a Jewish term that is to make the world a better place. Like, it is our obligation to serve and do whatever we can to make the world a better place. And I feel like you have done that. I feel like I'm trying to do that. And I think at the end of the day, if there's one single person that you're making better, it's worth every single second. Because podcasting is not for the faint of heart only. Yeah, you've been doing it a long time.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, it's been a while. And I'm a one woman show, so I do it all, so it's a lot. But I mean, I'm growing along with my community, so.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, I love it.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah, me too.

>> Tiffanie: Is your podcast on all major platforms for if anyone wants to check it out?

>> Donna Hall: The only place we don't have it is YouTube because it's audio.

>> Tiffanie: You can still do audio.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah, I know. Like, what would I do? Like, just put a stagnant picture maybe.

>> Tiffanie: I don't know, it has, like the audio wave.

>> Donna Hall: But let me ask you, if I do that, listen, we're sitting there talking and I think it's important because other podcasters are going to listen to this too. Right. If I do that, does it count towards, like, our overall, like, listens, like our downloads?

>> Tiffanie: Oh, absolutely.

>> Donna Hall: All right, so I'll have to talk to him about. I gotta get him going on that. I really need to get. Alan's the one who puts it all together for me.

>> Tiffanie: Yes. And if anyone out there has not subscribed to my YouTube channel, you should. I just hit 1,000 subscribers, so I'm super stoked about that.

>> Donna Hall: Awesome. yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I'm gonna share this when you get the. It's gonna be hard because I'm giving some really deep information, but I'm gonna share it.

>> Tiffanie: So.

>> Donna Hall: So, I'm really excited. I was super excited. I think, you know, I've been on a lot of guests on a lot of different podcasts, but I was so excited to meet another woman, you know, who is like bomb ass woman who is changing the world and is like, really bringing light to, you know, corruption and true crime and all of these horrible things that have happened to people. And, you know, it's hard to find good, genuine people, but in this podcasting world, man, it's great.

>> Tiffanie: Yes, yes. I love the community. It's just, it's very welcoming. And these are important topics. They're hard topics, but they need to, be discussed because these happen in so many homes.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. God, I could go on forever.


Is there anything else you wanted to add? Ah, I think I've shared a lot

>> Tiffanie: Is there anything else you wanted to add?

>> Donna Hall: Ah, I think I've shared a lot.

>> Tiffanie: Okay.

>> Donna Hall: Other than just check me out. I have a website. It's www.thehallclosetpodcast.com. my season is eight episodes. They're audio only. There's some surprising guests on there that I think you'd want to hear from. And you know, season two is coming out soon. Yeah, I told you what it was about. So you got the exclusive here.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, yeah, you did. I'll make sure I put all that links in the show notes too.

>> Donna Hall: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

>> Tiffanie: Thank you for coming on. This was fun. Yeah, this is great.

>> Donna Hall: It. It really was. And let's. Let's talk again and maybe when I have questions, I'm going to bring you on. Maybe I can bring you on my show as a guest.

>> Tiffanie: Hell yeah. I'm all for it.

>> Donna Hall: Yeah. If you know any exonerees, if you know any exoneree's and you want to like talk about it or introduce me, I'm looking for. I mean I have quite a few that have, you know, that are on there. But if you know someone and you want to come on with them, that would be great. Okay, let me know.

>> Tiffanie: Awesome.

>> Donna Hall: all right, thank you.