Who Owns a Survivor's Story?

Disclaimer and Purpose

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Before we begin, this conversation reflects my guests' lived experiences and perspective. Some claims discussed have not been independently verified, and some names have been omitted. But the heart of this conversation remains the same. Too often, survivors are dismissed, discredited, and pushed into silence. That's what we're here to challenge.

Rape Culture in Media

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Welcome, welcome back. My name's Tiffany, and I'm your host of True Crime Connections. With me today is Cindy. Cynthia. All kinds of names. And one of the main things that we do want to cover today is how survivors are silenced by saying they're crazy. You know, as a fellow childhood actor survivor, you've seen it. You get labeled, you're crazy, you're bipolar, you're schizophrenic. And it's easier, I think, for them to hide behind that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

And it really shouldn't be, because abuse causes mental health issues.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

I you know, I really do believe that.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

I don't want to forget, and if we don't say anything else today, like it's very concerning that in the call logs, it wasn't just me, it was other people. Like for my call log, when I called the Department of Justice about my experience, it was noted that I had amnesia, chemically induced amnesia, and so no follow-up. And there were other logs from other callers where it said there was a history of psych issues, so no follow-up.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Is this in pertain to the Epstein files or yes?

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a lot of things flow together. Epstein didn't exist in a vacuum. I've been a school counselor for 15 years. My grandfather had a home in the town of Palm Beach, which was the town of 8,000 people, I think, for like a hundred years. If I don't have any credibility at this point, I mean imagine if I were still a very emotionally disturbed teenager or a child, how would I be getting help? When I can't, I've earned a master's degree, I see hundreds of people every day that notice I'm not schizophrenic. I make more money than I've ever made in my life. Like I have no reason to jeopardize my career and lie and make things up. I called an attorney's office yesterday. Again, I've called so many attorneys' offices. I've called everybody that you can call. I've called the inspector general and the attorney general. It's hard to do without sometimes having some pretty profound emotional effects. But I can't stop calling people, I can't stop talking about it. It's just too big and it's too important.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

It's a form of healing for you, in a sense. You have literally pushed down all these emotions and memories for so long. And as soon as you were confronted with all of it, with the FBI, I'm sure that was a flood of emotions and just flashbacks and everything. That's a lot to handle. And you don't want to be silenced anymore. And I I commend you for that. You deserve to be in peace.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Well, and like what kind of world do we want to live in? Honestly, like

FBI Meeting Shock

SPEAKER_01 4:11

when I described what happened at my workplace where I was pulled into a meeting. This was in 2019, shortly before Epstein was arrested, and when they were going after Andrew Cuomo. Um, and they said that the FBI was on the phone and wanted to talk to me. And I think the first thing I thought was that it was probably about a student, because things happen, things happen with families, things happen with students. And yeah, there was no way to prepare for what happened. It became obvious that there had been evidence for decades that I was a survivor of young child sexual abuse and a witness to other crimes, survivor of multiple crimes. The way it unfolded was very shocking, is the only way to describe it. And I've asked for statements from those parties that were there when it happened. Depositions, very personal, very traumatic information about my life was shared with people that I worked with. Before you even knew it? Before I knew about it. Before I knew about it. Schools are they're more, I don't know, I guess, political than people realize. We do work for the state. We work very closely with law enforcement. I generally have a good relationship with law enforcement at my work, but information was made known, and it was made known to the administrators at the school and the school resource officer. There was a caller with all zeros on the line. And there's no easy way to describe it, and it was hours, it was many hours, so it's difficult to summarize. They had me looking

Childhood Threats and Drugging

SPEAKER_01 6:23

at pictures and trying to get me to talk about things where, like, when I was a little kid, my grandfather threatened to slip my throat if I talked about what I saw, and I was drugged for a period of time, and I remember that feeling of not being able to play because of the drugs, and it was to keep me silent. So I bring that up because I'm sure it affected me. Of course. My grandfather had told me that somebody once offered $10,000 to him to have her put away for life, but he said that he would never do that. So just kind of like an idea about the kind of things that have gone on. And yeah, if I think in general, like it's hard to prove things. It's very hard to prove things took place. And one of the reasons like I very much focus on the meeting that this happened, that they questioned me. Especially where things involve high-profile people, celebrities. Like people have a tendency not to believe survivors, even if it doesn't involve high-profile people. And when it does involve high-profile people, people sometimes treat it more like a sort of like it's a joke, like it's a cartoon sketch or something, because you've heard it ad nauseum, and people get inundated with certain media and have ideas about the way things were. So you could get called like a grifter or something, like trying to jump on the bandwagon.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

And that just it pisses me off. And unfortunately, it's the people out there that ruin it for the real survivors that I get really upset with for the people who do lie about being abused, and it paints a picture for everybody, and that's not fair.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

It's not fair, yeah, and and unfortunately, like this is

Media Illusions Money Power

SPEAKER_01 9:01

you're sort of really in the nest of it, right? Where the actor who played Johnny Depp said it best. He's like, you know, I I lie for a living. And so when you're talking about like Joe Jeffrey Epstein was involved with people in the movies, when you're talking, yeah, yeah. So really, it's like the New York Times nailed it when they called him an illusionist, but really there's a lot of grand scale illusions that are created that are politically motivated, that are advertising, PR campaigns. And those are driven by lots of money corporations, like people literally. If you're being abused by the people who seem to own the media or at least saturate it, yeah, it's gonna be pretty hard to have your little voice heard in that great big ocean.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Oh, for sure. I mean, they have all the control. Unfortunately, money really is the ruler of the world, whether people want to notice that or not. Like, how did Epstein get away with this for so long? Money. He had money, he had power, he had control, and people want that. They want to follow that, they want to be that. And that's that's a huge problem. Instead of wanting to stand up and do what's right, instead, they just shut their mouth and follow suit. And that's what we need to start changing. We need to start changing the narrative. Stop calling people crazy because you don't know what they've been through. And that's not fair to discredit people because you're not sure if they're telling the truth. Because most of the people are. It's that small little bunch that are pieces of shit that lie.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

I'm gonna call it what it is, and sometimes it may be very malicious. I think that people are just not uh perhaps aware sometimes, too, of course. I don't know if they had more empathy and understanding, then they may not participate in sort of those media games.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Right. People get scared when people do know of this stuff and they want to do right. Again, it goes back to the control and the money, and then they're scared because what's gonna happen to them? Are they gonna just end up missing one day? Are they gonna have a heart attack? Or you know what I mean? Like, what's gonna happen? And it's just a dangerous game. This world likes to play. But I like to play the treaty. Like, let it all out because people need to pay. They need to pay for what they've done for so many years. Oh my gosh. I used to think that it like just started happening like around the 80s and stuff like that. Like, you know, when I was younger, I was blind to all of that. Hell no, this has been going on like since the beginning of time. It's crazy to me.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And acknowledging our history is part of being honest, right? Um,

#METOO

SPEAKER_01 12:39

I think it's only been maybe the last decade or so where they've started to kind of be a little bit more strict about age and marriage and consent, things like that. But we did we do come from a world where in all 50 states there was a marital exemption to rape, and as long as the parent agreed, I I think in a lot of places there wasn't even a lower limit for the age. So sexualizing young people is not a new idea for sure. No, and then consent is a newer idea, relatively. I remember when I went back for my master's degree, like I was in one of the buildings at Adams State College, and there was a big old banner that was like this woman was like unconscious, and it was about like you couldn't, they couldn't consent. And I was like, wow, that's amazing. I can't believe I just saw that. And when people started to do the whole me too thing, I remember like in Albuquerque, there was it must have been Women's Day, and there was people were signing on the Me Too, and I signed on the Me Too, and it was about just acknowledging like that you shouldn't rape people. Very simple.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Don't rate people, don't abuse people, you'll be so much happier, probably, right? That's really what it was about for me.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

It's kind of devastating when people take power and they take the podium and they're saying kind of hateful, bullyish things. And I I know even though I wasn't focusing on the memories of the distant past, like I knew that I had been hurt, and it wasn't about moving money. But what you realize is a lot of what you know goes on in the courts and in politics is about moving money, and it's sad because like how do we come together as a society and grow if people are just always fighting over money?

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Maybe we need to get rid of money. I don't know. Take it away. Like you guys can't play nice, I'm taking it away.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Something shouldn't be contingent on it, right? I mean, if you're if you're gonna have a fair and just society, you're gonna represent people like regardless of their income. I I think that is something that needs to be worked on for sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, the fact that we even need to tell people like it's not okay to like beat your significant other, or it's not okay to make somebody have sex with you and they they don't want to. Why do we have to fricking say that? Is that not just implied that that um should be like that's not normal behavior? So it's just it blows my freaking mind. I don't know what warped people's minds. Like, when did common sense really stop becoming common? Like, what happened?

SPEAKER_01 16:07

I I almost hate to bring it up, but it's kind of hard not to just acknowledge. Like when people have used the religion to justify, you know, men, men are in charge, men are supposed to be in charge, and I think that that's I don't think that that's you know, really the the spirit of of of love and and having a great life is to have but I I do think that it was probably also pushed on men that they were supposed to be in charge, like they're not supposed to be a sissy or and they're supposed to be the man and they're supposed to be the king. And I I think that it's also been difficult to be a man in this world. I think it's been difficult to be human.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

I think that's a fair statement. I mean, you look at it when you're a little boy and you're told you have to provide, you have to do this, you have to do this, and this little boy is like, I don't know if I can do it. Then what happens to him? He starts a downward spiral, and now he's doing drugs, he's drinking, you know, he's he's going down the wrong path because he doesn't think that he can fit the mold that he's been told since he's been a little boy that he needs to fill. I think we put way too much pressure on our children and we take advantage of our children. And people just do downright disgusting things with their children, and it's time to stop. Children are not there for your amusement and for your chores and for your sexual desires. That is not what they are for. They're to carry your legacy in a positive way.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yes. Yes. It's, I mean, gosh. I'm glad we're having a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Me too. Me too. It's hashtag me too. It's so overdue, but people are more and more having this conversation, and it's empowering. People are tired of being silenced or tired of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So it just seems like convenient victims are acknowledged and assisted. And I don't like to call myself a victim, I like to call myself a survivor.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

You are survivor. Yeah, totally at a survivor.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

I told you like during the meeting that it was said to me, we heard you were like slimy Lolita. And like there was a point like during the meeting where I was like telling somebody to leave, and they refused to leave, and I was crying, and I got pretty angry. It's really surprising, and I told them as much in a very angry way, like you work in a school, and you don't realize that child sexual abuse is traumatic, and these are very personal conversations. They were sort of caught up with I think the celebrity names that were involved, and like I said, it becomes more almost like a dark carnival atmosphere, and it's so easy to get drowned behind the scenes, and it's so hard to get evidence. They wanted me to talk about that. I had been on these different movie sets, they wanted information, they were digging for information, and I want statements because you're not gonna find that evidence on the internet that of what happened. And people are in this day and age with AI and everything, right? Like they know, like nowadays, the average person can sort of create media and false media, Photoshop videos, or whatever themselves. So, in a way, people are more aware that these types of things happen. Like back in the day, though, they had still photo layering, they did still have video editing back in the day where they could cover it up, but you know, the old-fashioned way they covered things up was with lies and drugging people, and it's just not fair. It's just not fair, and I really kind of want to expose that that like these celebrity stories that people kind of take with some people maybe take with a grain or salt, like kind of realize how people are doing self-promotion and things like that. But there really are survivors that are hidden, that were hidden behind the scenes. So I don't know how else to prove it. Like, I mean, I can talk about my experiences. Sometimes I seem to fall on a little bit of evidence, but really, like, I had a group of people that were demanding that I talk about the fact that I was on the set of babes in Twilight. And it is significant, it is significant. Because not only because I got beat up on that set, playing around in the background, like a scene that I played in that was deleted. It's so much more than just like, oh, you want credit for it that you were there. It's that there were very highly abusive things that happened. And if I can't prove that I was on the movie sets, then it's very hard to talk about. Because a lot of things happen. Things happened on David Lynch's sets, things happened on the set of Lucas. And the people that were questioning me knew this. And so I feel that this should come to light. I feel that it needs to be exposed, that there is information that exists about what happened to me, and that I'm not making it up. And it's my history. And like because drugs and trauma and time affected my memories, it's almost like somebody has a photo album of me, and I feel that it's mine. And that's how I feel about the evidence. Because when they start questioning me, it was obvious that there was evidence, or they would have no reason to question me. They needed that I was the little girl in the painting, the Jeffrey Epstein painting, one of the little girls, or it was supposed to be in my likeness, the little girl in the yellow bikini and the Miss Tomato painting. They said that there were many pictures. They asked me about many extraordinary events. So I called an attorney again the other day. Like I said, I've called all these attorneys, and I'm just gonna try to keep working on saying it in a way that's coherent and understandable to people. It would be nice if they just came out with it. Like I don't know what a reason would be to hide that information.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Some of these people are still in business today. Matt puts stickiness in it.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Well, yeah, I mean, that's like why Corey Feldman didn't get to go to the Oscars when they were honoring Rob Reiner. Corey Feldman reported that Corey Haim had disclosed that he was raped on the set of Lucas. And I actually also know that Corey Haim definitely said that he was raped on the set of Lucas. We didn't actually see it, but we know that he said it. He was the person that Corey Haym said raped him. And Corey Feldman told people, and was on the board of LA SAGAftra for a really long time and really big in the unions, and he was a contemporary with Rob Reiner and has a relationship with Conan O'Brien, who is hosting the Oscars. And so I guess it would have been uncomfortable for Corey Feldman to be sharing the stage, given that that's like a very obvious example, and like, okay, so it's just the Oscars. Like, but you suspect that we don't get help because people are either involved with SAG AFTR and the union, or it's the politics of you're making a Democrat look bad, or you're making a Republican look bad, people don't want to look bad. Um, perhaps they know that it was wrong to share personal information about me with coworkers. Like, is that legal? I I don't know. It's not correct, definitely, when you're talking about highly traumatic events.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

I was thinking about HIPAA violation. Like, how is that not a HIPAA violation?

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Well, I don't know if it was medical. HIPAA is medical, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:25

Well, right, but being sexually assaulted, I would imagine it's connects to your health for sure. I mean, now if like say working in mental health, if a kid comes in and tells you this, you don't have the right to just go to the media.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Go tell everybody and then like pull them into a meeting and start having everybody interview them about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

And you're 100% right. How would they know anything about you if there's nothing about you anywhere? That makes no sense. They have to have something. And you do deserve to be able to see that. That is your life. That is what happened to you. Are they saying like they're sealed documents? Is that kind of like the wall you're hitting?

SPEAKER_01 27:27

So uh honestly, it was a very frightening, jarring, shocking experience in 2019. And like I've given you like the very briefest,

Epstein Questions

SPEAKER_01 27:39

like there was a lot that was said during that meeting. And one of the things that they did say too was that they noticed that I was followed, that when my car moves, other cars move. Recently? No, that was in 2019. When I was working at the middle school. And I finished out my contract. Like I really kind of disassociated after it happened. I finished out my contract. I was a single mom for a long time. I'm like, you go into survival mode. Like, I've got to just get through this year and get out of it. I think it was like March when the meeting happened. I really don't know even the exact date. I know that it was shortly before Epstein was arrested. And I know that it was around the time when they were going after Cuomo, because they were really pushing me to talk about Andrew Cuomo. And they were saying, like, you know, things like, how tall were you when you were next to him, and when you stayed at their house, and talking about like his mother and saying things about her that she was a very difficult Matilda was difficult to be around. Like they were definitely aware of who the Cuomo family was, and at that time they were going after him and saying that he was one of them. So this was very disturbing. And this was only one of the topics that they hit on that was at least as disturbing. Honestly, and it does sort of also demonstrate kind of a hostility that people still have towards like calling me slimy Lolita, asking me who I had sex with. Almost like I'm gonna be convicted of being, I don't know, promiscuous or something.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

So they have all this evidence, they come to you, they're asking you questions, they have lots of names, high-profile names. Right. But what what are they doing with that information? There's been no arrests, there's been no pub publicity.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Well, Cuomo stepped down, he's not the governor anymore. So that happened. Epstein was arrested right shortly after this happened. But what are they doing? I mean, I was literally told like they wanted me to cooperate. Um, I felt like I was treated like kind of like a hostile witness in a way. I mean, at one point Linda was like, you know what we're doing, like digging, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:47

It's just upsetting to me that they are. They're digging, they want to see what you know, how much of it you don't know and remember, but they're not moving pieces forward or in a positive way out of it. Like, right is the whole purpose of this then, if you're not gonna do a fucking thing about it.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

I don't know. I mean, like, it changed my life. I had experiences like where I was targeted when I was out. It made me not want to go out anymore. It made me feel very recluse, very drawn away from people to suddenly remember things that you never able to talk about. And then I would try to talk to people. And I know we talked about this earlier. Like, people don't respond very well. Like, they don't want to hear this shit a lot of times, and that's why, like, I'm just so grateful to you that you kind of put yourself out there and engaged in this conversation. I don't know. I mean, like, it it felt like an abuse of power, and like I draw back from that because I feel like, well, maybe they don't want to be in trouble, so that's why they don't want to admit that it happened. I was very upset, and it was obviously very inappropriate, and they don't look good when you're talking about like talking to somebody who survived child sexual abuse and calling them slimy Lolita and like literally harassing them and intimidating them. Like, that's not a good look. And so they don't want to talk about it, but I don't know how to talk about what happened without talking about what happened. Like, that's what happened. I I don't know where the orders came from, I don't know who was kind of heading the investigation. I called the attorney general in New Mexico, and the assistant basically was like, Well, we represent for the state of New Mexico, we don't represent for individuals. Yeah, yeah, and then like another time it was like, Well, we're not focusing on that right now, right? And so now they have the truth commission, they're looking for dead bodies at Zoro Ranch, and so I guess I mean I don't know what to think about anything, literally, that I read in the news because I know what happened to me and I know that I didn't get help. And so I question everything.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

I think us as a society should question everything. Unfortunately, it's come to that because everybody is protecting their people or themselves. We're not protecting the people who need protection. We're protecting the bad people. And the only people who benefit out of that is the predators. That's it. But for some reason, as a society, it's just been allowed to happen for so long. I mean, looking back now, like as an adult, I watched some of like the Shirley Temple fricking shows, and I'm like blown away.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Like War Babies, war babies, right? And actually came up like that. Was one of the things that we talked about that I talked about with Officer Beck. He was the police officer that was there at the meeting. If you watch War Babies, like I I don't even know how it's aloud. It's really disturbing. Like she's in a diaper and she's playing a little toddler, almost like it almost seems like she's like a hooker with other little boys that are fighting over her. And then, but the most, the single most disturbing part of that clip is there's a part where one of the toddlers is like sucking on a glove that's attached to him. It was just no reason for it and bizarre. And there's so much evidence of it. Like, I mean, Brooke Shields, I feel like, must have gotten paid a lot of money to talk about how it wasn't traumatic for her to play the part of a 10-year-old prostitute because her mom was very supportive of her. She was in Pretty Baby, like Jody Foster at 13 in taxi. Like, it's obvious that enough that it was in the media. Like, I was telling you when we were talking the other day, like the end of Revenge of the Nerds, like it was a joke, a joke that the nerds were raping, gang raping, basically, the jox cheerleader girlfriend. Like, that was hilarious. So, I mean, there's definitely been very dark, sinister humor about rape. It's been very obvious that our society has a history of sexualizing very young people. I mean, it's exploitation and it affects us on so many levels. Like if we look at each other as objects and don't see each other or hear each other as the soulful beings that we are, then we're so vacant, we're so hollow and lost. And then you have people who are like doing drugs to try to feel better, right? Doing anything to try to feel better, but it's like that soulful connection that people like people should just like love one another, and then other things fall into place, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Right. For the longest time, everybody was always like, gosh, child actors grow up and now they're such messes, and now we know why. I mean, look at Amanda Vines, that poor fucking girl. There's so many, so so many, because that's how they coped. That's how they got through it.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Well, and it's it yeah, but then also like it's the drug dealers, and it's a it was a tool of manipulation. Like, I remember someone gave me blue nitro, and somebody said blue nitro, and then they were like, shh, don't say that. Grievous bodily harm, blue nitro, fantasy, GHB. GHB gets like people have the idea that it's just a gay club drug, right? That it's like a fun thing that people do, but it actually affects your memory and your ability to function. So I know like drugs are pushed on people to control them, and drugs get sold for money, right? So there's those two driving factors. Pushing drugs on people to control them to me seems more sinister. But when people are pushing drugs because they want money, I mean that can also be sinister when you know that it's causing people harm. I mean, there's a vast amount of stupidity. Like, let's, you know, I mean, like people do just use drugs recreationally sometimes and don't necessarily realize that it's gonna have a terrible, devastating effect on them, right? And not all drugs are the same. We have to be aware that kids have been manipulated because because that is a thing, too, like where people get victimized and then they get fed drugs. And if you're fed drugs and then you don't have them anymore, you're gonna have withdrawals. If somebody gave you benzodiazepines for a period of time, and then all of a sudden you don't have them anymore, you're gonna have withdrawals. So the person can be an abuse victim and they might just get called a drug addict. I mean, that's what they did with Drew Barrymore, I think.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

And like, dude, like she's was in the newspaper, like 12-year-old Drew Barrymore gone wild, dancing on the tables, high on drugs, wild child bad girl Drew. And it was like, meanwhile, like, were any arrests made? Like, why does this 12-year-old girl have drugs? Where did she get drugs from? But that's not even the conversation. It was all like fetishizing Drew as this really young girl and acting like an older person than she was, which is pretty gross and a lack of responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 39:39

That's a great question. I mean, yeah, she even admits she was in rehab at a very young age. Well, where the fuck was she getting the alcohol, the drugs? Like, they had to be coming from somewhere at that age. Right. You don't usually don't have those kind of contacts.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Like, see, it's like you gotta pay attention to what's not said, right? I mean, it's very obvious that there's a lot that's unsaid. And so why is this story being told without that angle of like, how do we protect these children?

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Why do we have all these like young, beautiful people? Oh, we celebrate them and then they die of a drug overdose. Like, why is it that we're able to say that they're wonderful and plaster their picture everywhere, but not help keep them safe from drugs, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:31

That will kill them or destroy their lives? Like, why the suicides that you have to question if they're suicides? All the crazy things that happen to people. There's things going on behind the scenes. And why can't we talk about what's going on behind the scenes? Like, why isn't that coming out?

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Why is it still the same narratives that get promoted over and over again?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

You see the same stories, ad nauseum on 5,000 different channels, but we can't get into the root causes of these things.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Because that leads back to power and control and money. I mean, I'd say most of these suicides, I don't believe them. I don't. Especially I Lincoln Park, Chester, I don't believe he killed himself. Leadsinger to Soundgarten, I don't believe he killed himself.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Chris Cornell. Oh my god, that's a whole Chris Cornell. That was bizarre.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Like, I don't understand if he was overdosing, like he took an extra pill and he's overdosing and he's slurring speech on the phone with his wife or ex-wife. And then how do you have the wherewithal to then take an exercise band and strangle yourself? Like it just doesn't make any logical sense. But if you try to talk about it, you get like very angry people, like how dare you say that? Yeah. That one just personally just got to me. I couldn't right and just because, yeah, I mean, there's obviously like for Curbane, yeah, they're still talking about that and more could be said about that for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

I mean, obviously, everyone has their own thoughts on these things, but a lot of times when you really sit down and you think about it and you break it all out, a lot of it just it doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense. Like, how do you hang yourself from a doorknob?

SPEAKER_01 42:47

How right. I mean, it was like it was like scarf suicides one week, right? It wasn't like Robin Williams and Kate Spade, and everybody's hanging themselves by a scarf. That was pretty strange. So much has happened. You know, I mean, of course I'm thinking about River, but it's so much to open up and talk about. Like we could be here for days. And it's kind of like oh, you can open up your purse and spill it out, and then it's like it's three o'clock, dude. Like that's it.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

And and and it's hard to start because I don't know, like well, River Phoenix was a very special person to you, and he was it's hard to see things happen to people that you care about. And especially when you know the real narrative, it's just it's frustrating. Frustrating. It shouldn't be that yeah. It really shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Yeah. So they brought up Ruber doing The meeting in 2019, and it's like, well, why did you guys wait 30 years to talk to me? Honestly. Did I tell you I talked to Tatiana Siegel for like an hour, the editor

River Phoenix Night Recounted

SPEAKER_01 44:11

for Variety magazine? She was doing like the podcasts about River. She did it for Halloween. He died technically on Halloween because it was after midnight. It wasn't a Halloween party. It wasn't a cult ceremony. But she was talking with Samantha Mathis. Oh, and Sam talks about how she had known him for like about a year and stuff. And I said, Tatiana, all I need you to do is to ask Samantha to tell her that you talked to Cynthia and just have her confirm that I was there. And Tatiana said, Well, Samantha said that she's not going to talk about that night.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

You just want to meant that you were there the night he passed. Like I was there. That's all. You're not asking her to go into details. Right. Just acknowledge, yes, I was there. Not only was I there, I was wearing his freaking clothes. Which you pulled off brilliantly, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Yeah. Yeah. He uh he wanted me to feel comfortable. He had invited me to come to the Viper Room because he thought he was gonna play at Johnny Depp's club. And I was like, I don't feel like I'm gonna fit in. I mean, like he would be like he was ridiculously pretty. And I was definitely like, I was 19 years old. I didn't feel like I was gonna fit in or anything. I felt like I would be very awkward. And he was like, I'll be right back. And he left and he came back and he had his clothes on a hanger and he's like, put them on. And I didn't think they were gonna fit. I didn't think his jeans were gonna fit, and they did. And it was a Saturday night. It was the first time I bought a plane ticket in my life, and I still remember the cab driver like name-dropping the whole way to the Viper room, and it was really early when I got there. They were staying at the hotel that was across the street. But before I went out there, my aunt was very my aunt didn't like River. My aunt was also involved in doing some wrong things. There was a lot of crime around us, to say the least. And you know, River was a real person, a real person that like with zits and body odor, and like everything was not always pretty and beautiful, and everybody didn't always make the right decisions, and so yeah, like not everything we did was always healthy to just kind of say it that way. But my aunt had said she was gonna do something about him, and I told her to leave him alone. And when I uh got to California, the guy at the bar actually said to tell River that he was in trouble before I went over to the hotel. And I told River that the guy at the bar said that. Um so River wasn't actually even gonna go at first. Joaquin and Rain and Samantha were gonna go, Samantha was gonna take them because she was technically the only one. Like they were I think Sam is River's age. I think because River was 23, and Joaquin is my age. So we were 19, and then I think Rain was like 20, like almost would have been legal to be there. So Sam was gonna take them across the street, and because they were excited and they wanted to go to Johnny Depp's Club and they wanted to be part of this event. And then I said to River, I was like, if they're after you, are they gonna go after them? And that was when he got up and went across the street. And when he overdosed, like he started to spit up on the floor, and they pushed him outside. And Samantha went out, and then when I came out, she went back in. Rain was giving him rescue breaths on the sidewalk. There was we didn't have cell phones. I don't think I could get in that door. There were two doors I went around to get in, to go back in, told them to call 911. This one guy was just like, no one is calling 911. So we had to find his brother. His brother had gone next door. River had gotten into an argument prior to this because he thought he was gonna play on stage. And Johnny Depp had said, There's only so much room on the stage. So River was gonna just play from his seat, and because he was uh determined he was gonna play his guitar, and then he got into a scuffle and his guitar got taken away. And I think that that's the point when Joaquin was like, I'm gonna get some food, because there was a place next door, there used to be a place next door to the viper room where you could get food. They wouldn't call 911 in the Viper Room, went next door to that place that was like a thin. I guess it was like a diner. And I actually told someone to tell Joaquin that his brother was in trouble, and then Joaquin came out and he ended up being the one to call 911. But I do think very much that River was poisoned. It's hard to talk about it. It's hard to talk about because I I don't know if people can understand like how scary and crazy and like I didn't expect people to believe me. And I know that it's hard to prove things because of all my experiences. And I really did have amnesia. I had PTSD before River died. I actually I hadn't seen him for a while, and it was like I had tried to kill myself six months before he died, actually. And then I met somebody that was hanging out with people that were hanging out with him, and they found him and I told him what happened, and I don't know, maybe that's part of the reason why he invited me to the Viperom. He cared about me, he was a flawed human being like everybody else, trying to learn and survive and experience life, and he was a young person, and we didn't get to see him grow old, and it's terrible. But it is like one of the hardest things to talk about because you're talking about a sudden death, and you're talking about potentially a murder, and like with all the celebrity fanfare around it, it makes it worse, and then like if you've never been inside of a situation where people died and you've been threatened, you may not readily understand how trauma affects people, and it's there's very good reason to be scared. There's very good reason to be scared sometimes, and there's very good reason to believe that people will not believe you. And amnesia is a real thing that happens, and I think that it chemicals can create it. There's different things that can cause amnesia, but all these different things obviously make it really hard to talk about. And it's like I feel like we just go from kind of like one sensational story to another, which is part of the reason why I always I keep going back to like I just I need statements. Like I gave a list of people that were there that questioned me about these things that happened. I mean, it helps to be able to describe Palm Beach and like explain to people like things that you wouldn't think to say when you were a child or a young person, but like, and also we didn't have the internet too, right? So it's it's easier to show you.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Like now I can show you on Google Maps the distance between the house that my grandfather owned and Brillaway and Mar-a-Lago, and you can see that this has been a town of 8,000 people for the last hundred years, and you're learning about like how Hollywood was sort of enmeshed with these people, like that information is more readily available.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

And as an older person, you can put things together and explain things in a different way. Like, I don't think I could have held this conversation when I was 19. I know I couldn't. So even though it was a long time ago, it does matter because sometimes it takes people a long time to be able to talk about what happened to them. And you just need kind of the maturity and experience to be able to describe it.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

I believe that. I I hear that all the time on my show. People who waited 30 years even to tell their own partner what happened to them when they were a child. And that's why I think like the statute of limitations of bullshit needs to go away, because uh people do need time to sit and really think about what happened to them to be able to move through those feelings, to be able to learn how to try to help yourself heal and picture of why they happen, how they happen. It takes time and it it does, it takes maturity. And these kind of things shouldn't exist because if it was wrong back then, it should still be wrong today. It shouldn't matter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Well, for the record, I believe you.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Thank you. I I do appreciate like the time and space to discuss it. And I'm sorry that I'm not more linear, right? Because we're talking about so many different things. People always want a timeline, and you know, like I don't know what day most things happen. I mean, you really are like focused on the person that you're talking to and the survivor. And you know, I do think that part of the problem with our justice system is that there's not enough recognition of like what actually helps people. And sometimes people are more honestly focused on like I mean, I get it. I mean, if somebody's a danger to side, you want them to stop, and you want to interrupt that, right? But things like information related to my history is important because I have brain damage from what happened to me. And so, therefore, like the evidence that they have of what happened to me is meaningful to me, and I should own that. Like that, I don't know that that exists in our law. I don't know that our law acknowledges that, or that there's even any agency that has a sensitivity to realize that, like, if you've lost memories and if you've been called schizophrenic when you tried to talk about the abuse that you endured, like that's a huge thing. Like, when people don't see you as credible, I mean, that can affect your ability to have a job, that affects your relationships with people, that it can affect your relationship with yourself. You might ask yourself if you're crazy. And so evidence that you were in places that you were when others would say to the contrary becomes very important. And I I guess I'm kind of just keep repeating myself now.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

No, but right. This is your path, and you do deserve to know what they have about your path, because there could be even more in there that you've still suppressed to this day that could maybe help you with another situation. So, one thing that I would like to say is to any listeners that are listening, if you are able to help her get access to these files, please reach out to me. I don't know if you

Fighting for Records Access

SPEAKER_03 57:28

want anybody reaching out to you.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

So I mean, like honestly, it would be great. And like Samantha could really help.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

And she could just be like, yeah, Cynthia was there, and we went and talked to William Record the next day. Like that would be helpful. And the people who I got very angry with because, yeah, it was inappropriate the way they questioned me. It was really scary and upsetting, and it did not seem just what happened. But the thing is, like, I'm not after them. I'm after the information that they had, that they knew that I was around Jeffrey Epstein, that they knew that I was on the movie sets. Like, that is pertinent information because otherwise, you know, we have bought media that promotes certain narratives, a certain presents the world in a certain way. And it's it's not fair, right, to kind of bring up all these memories and then act like it didn't happen. You know, I've asked for depositions, and that's when I called an attorney the other day. I called Singleton and Schreiber and waiting for them to get back to me. I just keep calling people, and even if they can't take my case because there's no legal recourse, I am telling everybody in every way that I know how that this happened to me. And it just would be the right thing to be like, yeah, okay, we know. We know that you are on the set of babes and toilet. Like that would be huge. That'd be so helpful because it would help people realize that I'm not lying about being on other sets where things happened. So, yeah, like the people that know that I was on movie sets, the people that know that I was with River, like that would be really decent of them to stand up and say, I don't know how many people are gonna hear me or hear this. I mean, Johnny Jeff drove me to Cedar Sinai Hospital. And I described that to you, you know, and if you could find him, I mean, he probably would say it, he probably wouldn't have a problem saying it, but there's been no call for it, there's been no demand for it, and I am afraid that basically not acknowledging that I was in these different places, it's not protecting me, it's not helping me. And it's really not even that I want to go after people as much as I just want to demonstrate that I'm not making it up.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

You deserve it. They're your files. The files are on you. Like, why should they have more right to your life than you do? So please, anybody listening, if you are able to help recover some of this, please, please, please, please, please reach out to me because you deserve to answer. You do. You deserve to know what's in those files. If they can just show up to your school and tell everybody, okay, so this, this, this, and this, like, give me copies. Let me read through it. Something, anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

And I mean, I've given a list of people that were at the meeting that like they could be deposed, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Like, is it acceptable what's happened? Like, that's my question, too, to people. Like, is this acceptable what's happened? Right? Like, if that was you, would you want information about your child sexual abuse shared with your peers and parated out in front of you as you're crying your eyes out?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

People probing you for information.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:18

You said for hours too, like hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

Well, and like I did, I wanted to know what they had to say. Of course. And like whose idea was this? Where did this come from? But the problem with that is that, like we said earlier, like there's there's a chain of command, right? And people don't want to be in trouble or whatever. I just want the evidence. I want the testimony. Like, yes, we know she was on movie sets. Yes, we know she was around Epstein. Yes, we know she was with River, because it makes it easier for me to talk about what happened to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

Validates you in a sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

I mean, you know, but and it's your credibility. It's your credibility. Like, it's it's honestly not very good to be looked at as schizophrenic or as a liar or as an attention seeker or grifter.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

Like, my character matters to me, and how people perceive me matters to me. And of course, it's gonna affect anybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

Yeah, I mean, especially you don't know what's in there, and you you just freaking deserve to know what's in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

I mean, there it's like there's hidden wars that go on that people don't realize, and it's very hard to talk about, and like to have supportive people that understand that can really help document our history in a way that isn't. I mean, honestly, lots of human beings have have made mistakes,

Power Money and Naratives

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

and you know, obviously the ways of the past are not the ways that we always want to embrace. But if we're not honest about our past, then how does it change? How do we get to the next level? Right? Like the political wars setting people up to look bad or to bribe them and extort money for them because this is how we want our world to work. Like this is this is how you get to be a winner, right? You you abuse people or extort money from them and leave out anything that could make you look bad. Like it's not really a fair way, it's and it's not a good way. You can amass money doing very bad things, and then you become the guidepost for the media, you become a leader in politics because you now have amassed wealth by being part of corrupt schemes. Like that's it's not a great way to live. And I don't think that you want to be led by a society of basically successful organized crime bosses. Right. Like when we're talking about billions of dollars, like we really are talking about almost like organizations that are working towards the same effort. It's almost like little kings in a way. This is the United States, this is not, it doesn't belong to you because you scare and intimidate people or rob them. Right? This is our country, and we're supposed to be able to share it and be decent with one another. That obviously has been going on for a very, very, very long time. And that's really kind of what we're talking about, in a sense, smaller and larger scales, people fighting for power and money and control.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:06

It's time to take you know our America back. Let's, you know, we're supposed to be land of the free, the brave. Well let's get brave with it. Like, let's let our people be free. Stop hiding everything, stop digging holes and trying to bury shit. Like just be decent people. Why is that so fucking hard? I I just I don't understand. Right. Why is that so hard?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

I'm sure people they don't want to be in trouble, and I of course they don't want to be in trouble for things that happen. Like I said, it would just be helpful to be able to have a witness, to have someone that knows some of these things took place in order to lend credibility to it so that people will take seriously and think about our history and how people have been exploited. And of course, personally for me, like I want to be seen as credible and and honest, and it is for my healing, but I feel like it it's gonna touch and affect other people to really be honest about what's happened. It it's exposing something about our humanity and our civilization, and where we can look at that and say, okay, so that happened, and here we are now, and where are we gonna go from here? How is it gonna be different?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:51

You know, it starts with these conversations. We've got to start taking back the narrative. We've given them the power way too long. Of course. You deserve this, you really do, and I mean that with my heart. Emotional. But I believe you and I want you to have your answers. You deserve it. You deserve it. You are a wonderful person. Uh oh. I'm serious. You deserve to have your closure if there is such a fucking thing. But you know, like this is the first step.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

So I appreciate you being on the journey with me.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

Of course. Of course. I'll hold your hand up any way I can. So again, if anybody can get in those files who's got a flash drive.

Closure and Final Thanks

SPEAKER_03 1:08:02

Let's let's get some closure going in some areas here. I mean, it's it's needed. It's needed. Was there anything else that you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

I I just really appreciate your time. I really do. I I can't really tell you that enough. And you know, with all the terrible things that happened in the world, really like the fact that people do listen and they they're the good in the world should shine brighter. Like it should be what overshadows and you know, like the light pushes away the darkness. Like we have to remember that.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:48

Right. Damn it, it should like should yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

You're welcome. You're very welcome. Thank you for I hope you have.